Replacing Permanent Ballast in 26M

[raycarlson]

from what ive read the perm ballast is mainly there for when the boat is under motor with owner not having water ballast filled,kind of a safety measure by macgrg.50% of my use is as a cabin cruiser with out mast and sail and no water ballast,as most az lakes are steep canyon river channels unfit for sail.in my case when i added six more layers of glass from the waterline down and refinished and gelcoated all the storage compartments i added 200 pounds more lead shot along the long channels joining the keel tank to the aft berth just for peace of mind (not really concerned about topend speed) especially when there is five or six bodies spralled out on the top deck sunning and some young jet skiers zoom close by looking at the BNT's the mac can get rocking to some extreme angles and center of gravity issues are a real worry.so i wouldnt remove anything,300 pounds wouldnt effect your topend by more then one or two tenths of a knot.

[transformer]

Not saying it is simple . . . but how about a flexible bladder within the large volume area's of the water ballast, the bladder is filled from inside the bopat with the salt water absent . . the salt water ballast is filled in the normal way. ..as the fresh water is pumped out of the bladder and used, the saltwater valves are allowed to replace fresh water used.. . when empty the fresh water volume is replaced by salt water ... to refill the fresh water , - - either empty the salt and start again OR have the fresh water fill higher than the external water with the valves open to allow escape of the saltwater as the fresh refills the bladder.

method,
1. bladder made to size and fixed to plate 3" larger than hole to be cut in ballast tank to insert bladder. .
2. plate has fitting to allow filling and emptying of bladder.
3. cut hole in ballast tank.
4. insert bladder and seal plate to perimeter of ballast tank hole.
5. connect hose to fitting and incorporate pump / bypass into system.

(Sounds simple)

[Ixneigh]

Outside lead ballast in the form of a shallow keep is what I'm leaning toward now but may never implement it. Wouldn't mind having an extra battery but that won't affect the boat any. I already have 350 pounds of additional lead ballast inside I could lose 50 of it and put in an extra battery.
In term of swapping ballast water with drinking water I may yet do that. Everyone seems terrified of altering the ballast tank but with proper fiberglassing techniques and use of high quality resin, it can always be put back to original as good or better then new.
The additional weight I added to my boat has a noticeable impact on heeling above thirty degrees.
Ix

[Divecoz]

Hi Ix ... I have been gone for awhile , so I missed it if you explained how and where you added 350 lbs of lead ballast... We used to make and sell custom lead shot dive weights and the cost of lead shot being what it is we no longer offer that service...

Outside lead ballast in the form of a shallow keep is what I'm leaning toward now but may never implement it. Wouldn't mind having an extra battery but that won't affect the boat any. I already have 350 pounds of additional lead ballast inside I could lose 50 of it and put in an extra battery.
In term of swapping ballast water with drinking water I may yet do that. Everyone seems terrified of altering the ballast tank but with proper fiberglassing techniques and use of high quality resin, it can always be put back to original as good or better then new.
The additional weight I added to my boat has a noticeable impact on heeling above thirty degrees.
Ix

[yukonbob]

Couple bags of Portland and some short strand FG filimets (talk to your local concrete supplier for these) and pour into ballast tank vent. May require oversizing the vent hole. Same could be done with thinned epoxy and lead shot but the slurry would probably level itself off better and ensure consistency throughout. I'd even rig som kind of vibrator against the hull or take it for a drive to really level it out.

[Divecoz]

Lead is running , depending on purity $1.50 to $2 or more a pound PLUS .... the possibly of shipping cost.. I am wondering where Ixneigh has his 350 lbs of lead located and how its attached that he can remove it ??

Couple bags of Portland and some short strand FG filimets (talk to your local concrete supplier for these) and pour into ballast tank vent. May require oversizing the vent hole. Same could be done with thinned epoxy and lead shot but the slurry would probably level itself off better and ensure consistency throughout. I'd even rig som kind of vibrator against the hull or take it for a drive to really level it out.

[Ixneigh]

I have 30 lb lead bricks inside the midship lockers down as far low as is possible. I spray foamed them in place and added a bit more foam on top to add to the positive flotation in the boat. I have a few loose ones I can move around but I don't really in real world conditions. i might leave the loose ones at home if I was loading the boat for a three month trip.
Ix

[sailboatmike]

Wow is lead worth that much??


My JOG boat has 330Kg (about 700ibs) of lead in the skeg, me thinks the lead is worth almost more than the boat

[Divecoz]

It might be ... scrap lead even at a junk yard is worth some money ( You sell 40+ cents a pound ) .. Not as much as a couple years ago , but still its a costly item. I don't know how it works today but 4 to 6 years ago to sell scrap to an honest scrap yard required Photo ID etc etc Sad to say but lots of people were stealing Outside A/C Units and the copper pipe and Gutters and Aluminum siding..

Wow is lead worth that much??
My JOG boat has 330Kg (about 700ibs) of lead in the skeg, me thinks the lead is worth almost more than the boat

[Wayne nicol]

[BOAT]

Not sure why this was pushed back up to the top but I can assure you that no one is going to be able to tell you how to remove the permanent ballast in the M boat and no one should. The ballast should not be removed.

Some of the other suggestions were to replace the water ballast area. That too, is not a good idea - to do that you would need to cut a hole in the floor liner of the boat right aft of the daggerboard and then after opening up the floor liner you would need to continue cutting into the top of the ballast tank. Then you need to glass in the square section you want to steal from the ballast. The water should flow around the square okay, but you will lose some water capacity. I assume your idea was to replace the lost water capacity with batteries. I can only assume the batteries will not stick up to much higher than the original floor liner - but I'm not so sure on that. You would probably need to raise the floor there just like Roger raised the floor going into the head to accommodate the permanent ballast! (You can't remove it).

I hope your really really good at fiberglass.

If your totally hull bent on this may I recommend that instead of degrading the safety of your boat by stealing from the ballast system that instead you degrade the safety of your boat by stealing from the flotation system. If someone is dumb enough to crash the boat so bad it sinks then who cares if it can't float with a hole in it - right? That would only make your decision a problem every time you SINK your boat. But if someone screws with the ballast system it ruins the boats ability to sail - and that would make your decision a problem every time you use your boat. If you steal flotation it only effects you when your ready to sink. Hopefully that situation would be more rare but I am assuming you have good judgement.

There is a huge chunk of flotation down low in the boat right in the forward bow section. It's a perfect place to add more "ballast" (batteries, chain, water, food, beer, gasoline yuk yuk, pirate booty, whatever) if you really want to have more weight under the water line it might be easier to manage it there than another clumsy step up into the head area.

[Lee Ward]

What Boat said.

[Wayne nicol]

i was trying to post on another thread- it ended up here- and once posted you cant seem to delete a post- so i just threw in the logo.

however my take on these boats is that sure it was designed by a NA. but his word is not the last word on the subject- there are many other people out there, and on here that are very skilled, highly intelligent people- and they have valid input too. and i think chnages can be made- should a Na be approached- maybe... should we shy away from stretching the envelope on our own personal boats- nay i say.
people change sails- make cutter rigs- add tons of weight higher up than one should- boom kickers- dingys on deck etc etc.

personally i think its a really good idea to replace some of the ballast water with batteries- way heavier per volume.
should be a very easy fiberglass job too!

[sailboatmike]

I would think that ballast is best down low, so if you want extra ballast then the bottom of the dagger board is the place to put it, of course you would need to do some strengthening work and maybe add a keel winch.

Similar sized boats with taller rigs and more sail area seem to run between 300 and 350Kg ballast in their keels, I think the early model X is about 550Kg, later model X runs around 650Kg and the M around 750Kg.

As you can see having water ballast in the bilge really isnt economical in a sail boat weight wise, however we all know the advantages it offers in other areas of using the boat.

Im sure if you could get a marine engineer to look at it they could give you the best trade off between getting the weight in the keel and lessening the water ballast.

From looking at it with a untrained eye it seems that weight in the keel is worth around double the weight in water ballast

[BOAT]

Above is the traditional Ballast up high. This is how a MAC works.


Ballast down low -

When they started putting ballast at the end of a keel it did indeed make the ballast more efficient - more bang for the buck - better leverage made if work better with less weight. It also created a new problem that when the keel broke off the boat flipped over.

Another problem was getting into shallow water.