Benefits of the 25 Vs. the 26 (S,D) Classic

[ryanluskin]

The 25 and the 26(S &D) are both great boats, but I am trying to understand which better suits my purposes. I need a seaworthy boat (we live in Hawaii) that is comfortable for my family of four. I’d be grateful for your opinion, especially if you have experience with both. My original assumption was that the weighted keel of the 25 would give me a more seaworthy boat. However, I’ve read that while 26 is initially tender, it becomes more stable as it heels. Then, I learned that the capsize ratio for the 26 S is 2.24, while the 25 is 2.45. A lower number is better. Next, I read the motion comfort number for the 26 is 11.43, while the 25 is 8.8. The higher the number, the greater the comfort level. I watched the sales video for the 26. They were out in 25kts of wind, in some sea, and she handled. So, if the weighted keel of the does not necissarily maker her 25 more sturdy in big seas and wind, I don't see any benefits the 25 gives me the 26S does not. However, the 26 is lighter to trailer, has an extra double berth, a more open layout, and I won't have to deal with maintaining the swing keel. How about storage? Build strength? Does one point better? Am I missing anything?

[mastreb]

You aren't missing anything. The 26 was a further development of the 25. You should know that the 26S is a swing keel very similar to the 25, while the 26D is a daggerboard and much lower maintenance. The 26D is the fastest sailboat MacGregor ever produced, and many feel that they are the overall best of the pure sailboats before the company went to producing power sailors.

Unless trailering the boat is important to you, you may want to reconsider either a standard keelboat, which will be less tender initially.

If trailering is important, you may want to consider a later MacGregor power sailor such as the X or M. My concern is that with the large rolling waves in Hawaii it it may be difficult to keep a 26D pointed the direction you want to go, because ultimately they are very light boats. With a power sailor, if you get caught out in bigger waves beyond your comfort zone, you'll be able to throttle up fast enough to stay between them and bring the boat safely into harbor without scaring your crew.

[ryanluskin]

Thank you for your thoughts! I need a trailer sailor because it is impossible to get a slip on Maui. And, we live on the opposite side of the island from where we can moor. I had a boat over there on a mooring years ago. But, when the wind came up on the other side, I was always worried about the last boat I had. Plus, I get busy. So, the trailer gives me the ability to be out of the water whenever I need. With that said, many have felt the Catalinas, or something similar, are very good strongly built boats. Maybe better for bashing into swells. But, it seems I'd have to get a particularly large vehicle just to tow the Catalina 25...meaning my choice would be a Catlina 22, which weighs somewhere around the Mac S. So, I figure may as well make up the weight in a bigger boat that has more room. Although it might be a bit tender, I did see one guy online who had sailed his mac 26 1,600 miles. I was pretty inspired by how he'd rigged it up as a cruising boat. Finally, with respect to the owners of the highbrid motor/sail...I am a purist who wants to sail. No high freeboard for this sailor! I guess life is a compromise...

[mastreb]

You won't find a better boat for your trailering needs than a MacGregor. Having been in Pahoa right after the last Hurricane I kind of wonder weather even being on a trailer is going help you avoid heavy weather

You also don't have to worry about the sturdiness of any MacGregor--they aren't going to come apart under any circumstances. I've never heard of one being holed. My concern regarding the large waves is purely your own sea comfort and control of the boat.

Having been in some fast ocean rollers here in SoCal, I was very glad that I had the engine power and the semi-planing hull to put the boat exactly where I wanted it to be as we came back in.

Not to scare you (and I've never heard of this happening to a MacGregor) It's theoretically possible for any boat to be overwhelmed and rolled by breaking waves of a height equal to the beam of the boat, which means that 8' breaking waves could potentially roll any MacGregor. That sea condition is relatively common in Hawaii. A power sailor gives you a lot more control over that situation than a classic sailboat that cannot run as fast in waves and weather.

Waves in Hawaii are very predictable so you could just avoid that kind of sea. Do have a look at X's and M's if you have the opportunity. The X is a centerboard like the 26S, and the M is a daggerboard like the 26D. They're also both a lot bigger inside.

[ryanluskin]

Having been in Pahoa right after the last Hurricane I kind of wonder weather even being on a trailer is going help you avoid heavy weather:?

I just like to get my boat out of the water and in my yard, so I can keep an eye on it. The opposite is I'm at home always wondering and worrying. One time we had strong south winds, and I headed over. My boat was fine, but my buddies was on the rocks.

My concern regarding the large waves is purely your own sea comfort and control of the boat.

Yes, I think I'll beef up the rudder and forestay. I love being out there, but try to stay up wind of land so I don't get blown to Japan. Some people think I'm nuts for going out there in small boats because not many people do, but that is my trick. Just stay upwind of land, and if things hit the fan, I'll just float to land. Maybe lose the boat, but know I'd be fine. However, these days I have two kids, one being a baby. So, I need to re-evaluate my approach.

Having been in some fast ocean rollers here in SoCal, I was very glad that I had the engine power and the semi-planing hull to put the boat exactly where I wanted it to be as we came back in.

Yeah, I hate outboards out there. I had one on a Santana 24 once, and it was always cavitating in the surf. An inboard would be awesome. I guess life is all trade offs!

Not to scare you (and I've never heard of this happening to a MacGregor) It's theoretically possible for any boat to be overwhelmed and rolled by breaking waves of a height equal to the beam of the boat, which means that 8' breaking waves could potentially roll any MacGregor. That sea condition is relatively common in Hawaii. A power sailor gives you a lot more control over that situation than a classic sailboat that cannot run as fast in waves and weather.

The motor sailer is just not me. I guess I'm a purist. The trade-offs are too great for me. I like to imagine being one with the sea, working with her, and not against. For me, motors are loud, stink, and the higher freeboard make her not a good sailing option. I captained our 42 foot Pearson around Punta Guiena Venezuela once. My friend followed in his 22 footer he'd sailed from England, pitch-polled, and did a double roll. Again, without the kids, I kind of like pushing it. But have to re-think. Will choose my conditions and sailing locations carefully. Maybe have the family meet me at the other end if there is something challenging to do.

I thank you for engaging me, and am grateful to explore the possibilities. I've never had a trailer sailer before. So, discussions like these help me get a handle on what I'm getting into.

Waves in Hawaii are very predictable so you could just avoid that kind of sea. Do have a look at X's and M's if you have the opportunity. The X is a centerboard like the 26S, and the M is a daggerboard like the 26D. They're also both a lot bigger inside.

!	kmclemore:
	Hi, Ryan. Try using the 'Quote' button when you reply to posts as it makes it more clear whom you're speaking to (instead of writing "you wrote" and "response"). You can still remove the extraneous portions of the person's post and just leave the salient bits, if that's appropriate. I've done it for you, above. Cheers, Kevin.

[mastreb]

I hear you about sailing purity. I currently own and sail a Beneteau Oceanis 38 keelboat, and yes, it sails much more easily than a 26M and likes to sail. I point this out only so you know that I do know what you mean about sailing purity.

When I bought the 26M, I was not at all interested in the big motor. I bought because I wanted a new trailerable boat, and it was all MacGregor made. My first tank of gas lasted me a year and a half--that's how much I used the engine.

The 26M is not a bad sailing boat--It just has its own set of tricks you need to learn to really get it going.

The high freeboard is only an issue when slipping, trailering, and anchoring the boat--it's not an issue under sail. In fact, it's mostly like "more sail".

The heavy engine on the back can also be problematic, but it balances the boat and can be disconnected from steering and left up out of the way. Without a prop in the water, the boat gains a 1/2 knot over any inboard sailboat. This is especially nice in light air (which I don't think is your problem). It also makes a nice drogue if you want to straighten the boat out if you're crabbing in a current or facing waves.

But after two years of "just sailing" the 26M, I started to get into the bad habit of running before weather under power, using the engine to keep place in the waves, getting slipped before sunset, and "just getting home" with it. It's pretty addicting to sail out for three hours and return home in 15 minutes when you're done. With a real sailboat, you have to know half way through when the day is over, and with little kids, that's not easy. With a 26M, you can travel between the islands and still have the day to do things if you want.

The 26D is a better sailboat for sure, but you may want to try out a 26M before you make a final decision. Life is full of compromises, and the 26M is a compromise, but it's largely worth it. On my big boat, the thing I miss most about the MacGregor is getting places fast.

[TheSailingRode]

We owned the 25 before our 26M and really enjoyed it. I thought it sailed great and was very comfortable. I looked at a 26S before buying the 26M, but it felt very small inside even with the full rear berth. The 25 has a higher headroom than the 26s/d so it feels a lot bigger. We also removed the kitchenette from our 25 which opened it up. The 25 felt less tender than our 26M, but we hardly notice now that we are used to it. We cruised many miles and spent many nights on the 25, great memories. We are more comfortable in the 26M, but it is also six times the cost.

[ryanluskin]

Life on earth is amazing these days, to get connected so quickly to someone as knowledgeable as you! The Oceanis is a great boat! Is yours an older, or newer model?

I love your support of the M. Is it like the X? Budget is also an issue for me. Mine is ten grand, total, mooring, outboard, VHF, Eprib. And, I think the M is likely to be more doe. If I spent more doe, I might go for a flicka, Pacific Seacraft, or some stronger heavier model. But then, just as with the Catalina 25, I'd have to get a bigger truck. I'm looking at a more long-term thing, and I won't use it all the time. So, I don't want to spend more on a big gas guzzler just for the off times I'll be boating. The S and D seem to be a bigger boat, at a low price, that is easily trailerable.

With that said, there are not a lot of boats available on Maui, or in Hawaii. There is a 25 for sale down the street I could pick up right now. Guy is not cheap. He wants 5k, two horse motor, and another fifteen hundred for the trailer. If it was a steel of a deal, I might grab it. But, I think that is kind of high. And, it doesn't seem to be my ideal. I'd rather wait for a 26. My baby is seventeen months, so I'm in a hurry.

Plus, I want to get the right boat. Like you, I might buy another blue water boat and some point, and sail more of the South Pacific. But, I'd plan on just keeping the trailer sailer for the long haul, for my Maui cruiser.

[ryanluskin]

You mentioned the 25 felt bigger inside than the 26s. Which boat felt better inside to you, the 25 or the 26s? What about the aft berth, is it awesome, or something one wouldn't really use? Is the space made up as storage in the lazzerette? And, do you think the 25 would sail better?

[Sumner]

...However, I’ve read that while 26 is initially tender, it becomes more stable as it heels....

Here is a video of...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppZV4NR ... e=youtu.be

...my 26S on a broad reach running about 6 knots with over 1000 extra pounds aboard as I was at the beginning of the Bahama trip and was also towing the dinghy at the time. More about the day here...

http://1fatgmc.com/boat/mac-1/2015%20Ba ... age-1.html

...Notice in the video that once the boat hardens up it is like it is on rails. My friend Scott goes below and comes back into the cockpit and the boat just stays like it is. They are tender at first but then really harden up and I found this to be true most of the time on the trip and sailed a lot of it.

Sumner

============================
1300 miles to the Bahamas and back -- 2015

The MacGregor 26-S

The Endeavour 37

Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[TheSailingRode]

the headroom in the 25 was a lot better for me at 6' tall. That said, one of the main reasons we bought the 26M was the rear berth. We stay on the boat over 30 nights a year and liked not having to put the table down to sleep. I recommend to try to go see the 26s/d and the 25 the same day or as close as possible. spend time sitting inside and moving around. It also depends on how much overnight trips you plan to do. it had been a few years since I was in either boat, so I cannot remember how the 26s/d felt inside other than the headroom. We just released a podcast reviewing the 25 and 26M if you want to listen, it is on our website or search iTunes for The Sailing Rode.
- Steve

[ryanluskin]

A huge mahalo to both Summer, Kevin, and Steve. Amazing minds. Summer, your website actually captivated me for hours a few nights back. I was stunned and inspired to see your 26 set up as a full fledged cruising boat...and you were doing it...cruising far. I looked at each of your modifications and my heart soared with potential. Steve, sharing this information is amazing for me because there are no boats to look at here on Maui. There just happens to be one 25 for sale down the street. My wife thinks it is very clean, and the swing keel has been re-done. But, I'd guess very few, if any, other Macgregors come on the market on Maui each year. If I wanted to check out a 26, I'd likely have to wait until one became available on another island, fly and rent a car to check it out, and end up spending a minimum of a few hundred dollars. Then, I'd have to ship the trailer, and sail the bugger on a pretty big first passage back to Maui. I could buy one on the mainland, and pay four grand to ship it back. The guy down the street with the 25 wants 4,900 for the boat, another 1,500 for the trailer, and 2,500 for an electric outboard. To put down a mooring, the state makes you get stamped plans from an engineer for 1,200, and then the cost of materials and building it. I'm taking my time because I have a baby, am in no hurry, and want to get a boat to keep long term. And, we'd probably do a lot of all-nighters, with a family of four, plus friends on occasion. If the 25 sailed much better, I'd jump on it. But, it sounds like the 26 sails as well, has the extra birth, and is more easily trailerable. Plus, I feel like he wants too much. It would be like nine grand for the 25 with the trailer and outboard, and almost no extra gear. Here's a link: https://honolulu.craigslist.org/mau/boa/5194317168.html

[dlandersson]

From what you are writing, an long-term investment in a 26X or M or Tatoo 26 sounds like you're best bet.

[C Buchs]

For good reading from someone with a 26X, check out http://chinook.cecka.us/. Mike & Sandy have a 26X, have gone on many adventures and are currently doing The Great Loop.

Jeff

[sailboatmike]

If your wife likes the 25 dont show her a 26M or X or you will never get her into a space so much smaller.

That was the final deciding factor for us, the actual space inside and the nice clean layout of the interior making it a great family boat.

I guess sailing ability of the M and X's is somewhat comparative, I have been told they dont sail well, but in comparison to what? A full on racing boat?

We have a Austral 8 (Australian Design TS) at our club which is one of the fastest trailer sailers ever built and the owner who is a REAL sailor and has crossed the Pacific on boat deliveries a few times (obviously not in the Austral) drools over my X, he may be able to point a bit higher and sail at maybe an extra Knt or 2, but at the end of the day the difference of making 6knts instead of 8 is marginal at best, his rig is at least 6 feet taller and his sail area appropriately larger with all the issues of sail handling that brings, one has to really wonder if its all work while