Thunderstorms

[NiceAft]

I'm having a problem accepting the tactic of aiming a Mac into the wind and deploying a drogue. Aiming into the wind I get, but the drogue is

I just don't believe that a Mac will point into heavy wind and not be pushed backwards, and that's the challenge I'm having. If that occurs, then how is a drogue/sea anchor going to be effective. When Kadet pointed out that in a similar sea condition, I believe Kadet stated that the vessel was pushed backwards at a rate of two to three knots. This is exactly what I would expect to happen. How can a drogue stay inflated if the Mac is in reverse? Is the sea actually going faster than that, and filling the drogue?

Maybe someone with actual Mac experience in these conditions, and having tried a drogue, will supply an answer. I believe this warrants further discussion.


Ray

[RobertB]

Drogue off the bow

[NiceAft]

Thanks

[mastreb]

I concur that it needs to be tested in gale conditions.

Kadet can confirm this, but if he performed a traditional hove-to with a back-winded jib, then he would have been pushed backwards at some rate. When I was practicing traditional hove-tos, I had the same problem: The back-winded jib acts as a chute and pushed the boat backwards--in my case only .5 knots but I wasn't in any kind of storm.

The type of hove-to I'm recommending keeps the boat in "aerodynamic mode" and has a lot less drag than a traditional hove-to. In my tests in normal wind conditions, the boat is much more stationary and will make a small amount of forward headway, although to be honest I may have been making forward headway due to current. I coudln't tell as I don't have a paddle-wheel.

In any case, the type of hove-to I'm recommending using a reefed main only is a lot more position stable than a jib & main hove-to.

As for the drogue, yes, do be sure you know which way the relative current is moving and deploy off the best position to keep the bow into the wind. I don't carry a drogue, so I won't be able to test that.

[Ixneigh]

I think I'd bend on all the spare line I had, to the anchor line, and deploy that. Leave the board half down and rudders and motor up. If sea room is at all an issue you are better off running for shore. Remind me what you are doing so far away from land in a Mac anyway??
Running the motor is an acceptable way to ride out squalls and things like that. That centerline main idea I would fear might damage the leech of the sail from flogging. The M model will happily go sideways quite well with a Double reefed main up. This steadies the boat, and presents the stronger curved part of the hull to any breaking waves. Not sure about the roll over risk and what are you doing out there where rollover risk even enters the conversation? People don't have these conversations about Boldger Leeboard sharpies because if you have one you don't allow it to go out there.

Ix

[tehtairing]

I got the seabreak system to put on the bowl for weather out the storm , it makes sense.

What I don't quite get is the 2nd reef on the main sail as there is only 1 reef point on the main for my main . Where is the 2nd reef point located and is that done on custom sail modification?

[NiceAft]

The stock main only has one reef point.

When you decide it's time to replace your main, I'm sure your new sail will have at least two reef points.

Ray

[tehtairing]

Hi Ray,

Thanks.

[mastreb]

I've been caught out twice in storm conditions, but that's because in So. Cal. we routinely go between the coast and Catalina, which has the 2500 foot deep and 20 mile wide San Pedro channel. I've always been able to run with the motor, but it makes sense to be prepared for anything. Engine problems can occur anywhere.

Ix, I like the idea of deploying the anchor even in deep water, as that will create drag that keeps the bow pointed to wind and waves coming from the front. It's a tactic they use in the Navy to steady ships that are stopped at sea.

Again, should be tested. Storm tactics are hard because they do vary by boat and by hull as much as by tactic. Lying a-hull however (no sails, allowing the boat to drift in a storm) does increase roll-over risk dramatically even in keel-boats, so in our boats I imagine it should be avoided irrespective of potential damage to sails or rigging. The insurance investigations of the Sydney-Hobarth disaster were clear that out of many dozens of boats, not one that hove-to was lost, whereas a number of a-hull boats were rolled by quartering waves.

[kadet]

Yes I was performing a regular hove to with almost a fully furled head sail just enough out to counter the double reefed main (I only have 2 reefs)
But it was the free board that is the issue. I don't care how you heave to in these boats the hull is enough to sail these boast in any strong wind.

Without a full keel and more weight these boats are just not going to be stable for any significant time without power. They are just too light and too fat and I concluded very quickly after heavy to that if you have any sail up and you get hit by a micro burst you will be in real trouble. Gusts on the hull were causing it to heal quit a lot, and I must admit I chickened out especially when the GPS said I was still making 3 knots and I was only about 1.5 miles offshore. My solution was to drop everything and turn into the wind as it was a lee shore and motor slowly away from danger. It was not that bad as the wind waves had not had time to build 2 foot maybe and the wind was about 30 knots for 1/2 an hour with the odd very strong gust thrown in to keep you awake then it was all over.

After getting caught out in a near gale and having to motor for over 4 hours at slow speed to get back to port I had practiced heaving to in 10-15 knot winds and thought I had it mastered (wrong) strong winds are a different ball game.

I think mastreb method would be great for a rest in average or a bit stronger winds and I cannot wait to try it. But as a storm tactic I think I still want to be moving under power, if the engine fails then I will keep it as a plan b c or d option

[Catigale]

The other problem with these boats is the stock sails. The material us so cheap that after a few years, I would not trust it not to fail in winds over 30 kts. For any length of time.

Recloth if you are offshore where you might be caught in heave-to conditions.

[Russ]

Yes I was performing a regular hove to with almost a fully furled head sail just enough out to counter the double reefed main (I only have 2 reefs)
But it was the free board that is the issue. I don't care how you heave to in these boats the hull is enough to sail these boast in any strong wind.

Without a full keel and more weight these boats are just not going to be stable for any significant time without power. They are just too light and too fat and I concluded very quickly after heavy to that if you have any sail up and you get hit by a micro burst you will be in real trouble.

I don't feel comfortable with any sail up in 60mph winds gusting higher and lightning bouncing around. I also don't feel comfortable on deck. However, if so, pfd and tethered to something is a must.

These boats have so much windage, I bet with 60mph winds the boat would blow away at 5+knots with the wind, probably more. You better have plenty of water between you and shore, which I assume is why you are not in a safe mooring to begin with.

All boats I've been caught in T-storms in faired best pointed into the wind (and waves). For that you'll need to be motoring for steerage or something off the bow to hold you there. A drogue (yea we all have one of those right) or as IX mentioned, maybe make one of an anchor and lots of line. Who knows, it might even catch the bottom and slow you down. Just to keep the bow pointed to the weather.

I spent a long night in a protected cove with 50mph gusts with the Mac on hook. I was a couple hundred yards from the lee shore and the boat was a bucking bronco all night. All that windage.

If you are going to heave to, better practice and know what you are doing. Better have everything secured REALLY well. The most prudent thing is to be aware of weather and avoid it. With modern weather apps, this is easy to do.

--Russ

[BOAT]

No thanks. Too many sharks in tornados.

I survived Sharknado and I have the T shirt too.

[mastreb]

I absolutely concur that if you can make for safe harbor, do so. Nobody should ride out a storm unless there's no option. I also take seriously Kadet's admonishment that storm winds are different than heavy winds, and I've never experienced them.

Here in SoCal, we're far more likely to get strong waves with moderate wind because we routinely get very large rollers coming from storms that go ashore and dissipate in Baja, and for that situation, heaving-to works very well to avoid roll-over and to make waiting it out more comfortable. Often these rollers are so fast that you can't keep the boat from broaching even at WOT.

Ditto to Catigale's advice re: sails. I have a suit of Judy B's sails made of 7oz cloth and they're FAR more durable and sail much better with dramatically reduced flogging compared to the stock sails. The headsail weighs almost twice as much, and it's rock solid even in light winds. They also have two reefs. My cost was $1500 for the both, and well worth it for the improved performance and lifetime IMHO.

[kadet]

The most prudent thing is to be aware of weather and avoid it. With modern weather apps, this is easy to do.

True but even with all the modern tech they still get it wrong. The near gale I was caught in was not predicted when we set out for a weekend of sailing and fishing at an island about 20 miles off-shore. And when the weather was updated it arrived 12 hours earlier than predicted. We had slept over night with the intention of heading home at first light to avoid the gale coming the next evening. But when we woke it was already building and by the time we were ready to leave it was howling. 4+ hours motoring at 4 knots in 6-9 foot waves on the beam. Not fun but never felt unsafe just very uncomfortable.