Will this hurt the motor?

[BOAT]

We are just now (finally) starting to practice our heavy weather sailing on 'boat' and with the swells we have had the past few weeks I think we are getting pretty good at learning to 'surf' the boat down the face of large waves (swells) as I often prefer to run before the weather when the sea is really high. It's a lot less pounding on the boat and I can't really point really high with 'boat' so it makes it hard to steer into the weather when needed - it's possible, but difficult because i only have one reef on my main. Anyways - we got the main on the first reef and the Genoa furled down to basically nothing (only enough to balance the boat around the dagger-board really) on a broad reach and I got the boat pointing straight down the face of a following sea and I found it to be rather manageable if the dagger-board is only about a foot or so in the water and the motor is in the down position. I found if we picked our way around the back of the swells we were able to avoid the ones that were cresting and keep a pretty good forward motion on the front of the swells - it does get very tiring though after about an hour or two and I really don't think I would trust an AP to steer the boat like that - which really does tell me that the MACM is really not ready for an extended run in high seas, (unless AP's are better than I think) - I would just get too tired trying to maneuver through the swells; after about three hours i think I would be too tired.

My concern is the motor - the prop is turning when I do that, right? Will it hurt the motor?

[tlgibson97]

I don't think it will necessarily hurt the motor other than general wear on the moving parts. If you don't put the motor in gear the wind turns the prop when trailering so it would be the same.

The last time I was in heavy swells with heavy winds I got into a pretty hairy situation. I had a reefed main and mostly furled Genoa like you. I had trouble keeping the nose pointed diwn the swells and ended up knocked down a couple times.

The next time I'm in that situation I figure I'd try lowering the main and using headsail alone. Maybe lowering the motor for some drag in the aft might help too. If using the motor for drag, putting it in gear would add a little more drag.

After last time I try to avoid those condition altogether. At least until I am more experienced. Maybe work my way up to it instead of jumping into a boiling pot.

[BOAT]

I don't think it will necessarily hurt the motor other than general wear on the moving parts. If you don't put the motor in gear the wind turns the prop when trailering so it would be the same.

The last time I was in heavy swells with heavy winds I got into a pretty hairy situation. I had a reefed main and mostly furled Genoa like you. I had trouble keeping the nose pointed diwn the swells and ended up knocked down a couple times.

The next time I'm in that situation I figure I'd try lowering the main and using headsail alone. Maybe lowering the motor for some drag in the aft might help too. If using the motor for drag, putting it in gear would add a little more drag.

After last time I try to avoid those condition altogether. At least until I am more experienced. Maybe work my way up to it instead of jumping into a boiling pot.

You gotta get the dagger-board out of the water to surf down the waves - that's the key - if the dagger-board is down all the way and you exceed 5 or 6 knots (forward motion across the water, NOT GPS speed) then the boat will try to turn because the dagger-board tip is catching too much water and it's trying to rise out of the water. You need to get the dagger-board up closer to the bottom of the boat so the force on the dagger-board tip is not multiplied by leverage beyond the balancing point of the hull. Surfing down waves should be a similar configuration as using the M boat as a motor boat because the hull is not deep enough to counteract the leverage on the tip of the dagger-board. If your surfing near 10 knots then only expose 6 to 8 inches of dagger-board - the slower you surf the more board you can expose. Maneuverability gets wacky with less than 6 inches of dagger-board.

Also, in a broach the boat will be less likely to topple over if the dagger-board is only a little bit in the water - I did find that sometimes I did not maneuver over the top of the swell as well as I should have because of my lack of attention and the boat would go sideways and try to broach but with the dagger-board mostly up the M boat will slide a little sideways and not tip over (as long as you have a little jib out - that's another key - balance the boat around the dagger-board with a little head-sail - I would not fully reef the jib), and at the bottom of the swell you can get back on course. It's not easy - we are still practicing.

Bottom line is that the boat will get knocked down eventually because you just can't keep up the piloting forever - it's too tiring. Prepare the boat for a knockdown (lash everything and so forth - get the heavy stuff inside locked down) and even in a knockdown the MAC M boat seems to be just fine - because of the light hull and ballast I found that the knockdowns do not seem to put a lot of stress on the rig - (I guess that's why they are so lightly rigged) Honestly, I think you could easily pick up the entire boat by the mast and the rigging would hold up just fine so I'm not a scared of knockdowns as I used to be.

I think what the M boat really needs is another portable fore-stay that you can put up easily - something that attaches right in front of the forward hatch - the head sail helps so much with steering that I think the M boat needs a place to mount a storm jib that is closer to the mast; the genny is too far forward in heavy winds (like over 30 knots) and not much use - do that with a REAL three reefed main (not a single like I have) and I think you might be able to do heavy seas in the MAC maybe even for a long time - not sure - I have not tried it. I think a younger guy could handle it, or maybe even me with a real crew. I'm tempted.

[yukonbob]

We have a 16nm run back to port from the next town down the coast where we usually spend our weekends. Many times we have to head home Sunday morning in following seas with a SCA or a few times a gale warning (only due to the delay in weather alerts, SCA was advised, get to port and they’ve upgraded to a gale). Dragging the leg does help reduce your surfing speed but do not leave it in gear, this can cause serious engine damage. To replace the leg or increase drag if we require it I purchased a small sea anchor (24”) last year but have yet to deploy under conditions.
The channel we regularly sail through is about 1-2nm wide and over 2000ft deep, waves are tightly stacked and start breaking above 4’. I have found running straight downwind is too hard to maintain in these conditions. So rather than fight the waves, pitch poling, rounding up and accidental gybes, I leave the DB up and run on a broad reach; taking side slippage into consideration due to the hull shape and weight. This allows a running affect without the hazards although less efficient.
The other option I tend to favor when conditions really go for s—t is to fly 25-50% of the jib only. In higher winds this makes handling much easier on the captain, the boat and IMO is safer especially with a furler. We can readily maintain 5-7 knts under partial jib alone and the admiral can nap in the cockpit while underway. I favor this setup over motoring 100% of the time when conditions permit. I think the reduced speed is the key in this setup. With more sail comes more surf speed which equals more roll when your hull hits the wave in front of you. If you can find a sail plan that allows you to sail at wave speed you’re laughing.
We first noticed this about four years ago coming back from an extended trip. I fought the waves for over three hours before I said, hey I wonder if some sail would help this situation. Sure enough everything smoothed right out, the admiral went from looking green and apprehensive to asleep beside me in the cockpit; then the wind abruptly died within the hour as per usual when the sails go up and the sailing is good.

[BOAT]

do not leave it in gear, this can cause serious engine damage.
The channel we regularly sail through is about 1-2nm wide and over 2000ft deep, waves are tightly stacked and start breaking above 4’. . . .
I leave the DB up and run on a broad reach; taking side slippage into consideration . . . .
The other option I tend to favor when conditions really go for s—t is to fly 25-50% of the jib only . . .
If you can find a sail plan that allows you to sail at wave speed you’re laughing . . . .

Yes Bob, that’s what I found – dagger board up on a broad reach was the best setup and the boat did tend to slide a little which was actually helpful except at the bottom of the swell where I needed to correct my turn but had little speed – I found about 6 to 8 inches of dagger board helped with the maneuvering in the trough – but the swells here are a lot larger and a lot further apart so I think it’s a little easier than what you were fighting.

The idea to use partial jib alone is a GREAT IDEA! I never even thought of that! Now I can’t wait to try it!

As for laughing at the waves the only way to outrun them is to actually "surf" them - I have had plenty of time on 'boat' in a following sea where the swells are picking up the rear and then dropping it back down - in fact it's the only way to get into my harbor - those are the small swells, to really "surf" the swells they need to be very big (like 6 to 10 feet) and those are steep enough to get you going. Those are the ones I am trying to prictice on now - we get 8 footers right off the coast hear this time of year.

I will make sure the motor is out of gear too.

[yukonbob]

Even run the jib sheets back through the genoa tacks to trim the jib better for downwind sailing. Don’t try and outrun the wave’s just hang out with them, match their speed. This helps eliminates the roll when your bow hits the next wave. We hit 11 knts a few years back heading home in one of those gales surfing some 6-7 footers. That has been the only time waves broke into the cockpit and across the bow (as we crossed the Lynn Canal to line up with Taiya inlet to get back to home port) Here on outside waters there is almost always a 6 ft swell even on nice calm days. We were stuck in harbor for half a week due to the 15-20 ft swell with 4’ breakers on top of them. When we finally went out to play there was still a nice steady 10’ swell. Sure is different losing the shore line for several seconds. Wished I had gotten better pics of the ice blue water sending massive waves crashing against the shore quite the contrast.

[BOAT]

Yeah, we don't get stuff like that - that's east coast like stuff - over here the 10 footers are very very seasonal - if you want ten footers over here you need to go out at least 100 miles or go really far north. That's why I am practicing - the sea is so mild here that I am afraid I will get into something someday and not know what works best for my boat.

Sometimes very rarely we can get some 10 footers on the way to Catalina Island right about at the halfway point but they are usually very round "rollers" and spaced pretty far apart. The nasty stuff here is in April when the chop is only 4 feet but in all directions and right next to each other like moguls on the ski slope and the wind is bowing 30 knots - it's just a mess: "pound" "pound" "pound" no fun at all - most folks with lightweight boats like us stay in during March and April.

Right now off Point Conception it's 8 feet (that's up north) People traveling from down here to up north to the Bay Area have to fight that mess.

[Highlander]

I have been there done that here I am on Q1 boat was in the same scenario on the St Lawrence seaway following sea,s & tide
http://vid844.photobucket.com/albums/ab ... 010072.mp4

I was running all the lines & steering & shooting the vid all @ once as Q1 was recovering from surgery it hard work like u said constantly working the lines & steering

J

[BOAT]

That's it highlander - that's perfect piloting and the wake looks to me like your making about 8 knots? The flag on your side stay shows the wind almost dead aft - you are cresting the tops of swells at a good speed that allows maneuverability - Yer motor is out of the water the sails are set at broad reach - starboard tack and I don't see you messing around with the jib much because it's flopping a little anyways so what's the point. Your within sight of land dead ahead - perfect. Excellent piloting demonstration.

Two questions:

1.Was the daggerboard up or down or inbetween?
2.Were you using the jib or the staysail? (out in front - we all know you have two places to mount a head sail - which mount did you use?)

[Highlander]

That's it highlander - that's perfect piloting and the wake looks to me like your making about 8 knots? The flag on your side stay shows the wind almost dead aft - you are cresting the tops of swells at a good speed that allows maneuverability - Yer motor is out of the water the sails are set at broad reach - starboard tack and I don't see you messing around with the jib much because it's flopping a little anyways so what's the point. Your within sight of land dead ahead - perfect. Excellent piloting demonstration.

Two questions:

1.Was the daggerboard up or down or inbetween?
2.Were you using the jib or the staysail? (out in front - we all know you have two places to mount a head sail - which mount did you use?)

This was on Q1 boat when I was up in Quebec visiting him for some sailing not my boat , had the D/B down about 1ft I believe cannot remember now for sure , we ended up wing on wing with jib & main
http://vid844.photobucket.com/albums/ab ... 010074.mp4

J
PS notice no preventer on the main

[BOAT]

The second video looks like running on a port tack.

Do you have any pictures of a preventer on a mac?

[Highlander]

The second video looks like running on a port tack.

Do you have any pictures of a preventer on a mac?

If watch the end of that last vid u,ll notice my hands on the helm r all over the place trying to keep her under control was a work-out for sure but was also lots of fun

[vizwhiz]

I had just been reading about some racers surfing on purpose at wave speed, essentially staying on the face of the waves the whole time. To paraphrase, his instructions to the crew were not to sail up, only down, and they kept it at about 15 knots making great time. This was "discovered" by a guy crossing back from Hawaii or something and has been discussed and practiced a lot since apparently. The M would probably be very happy there, planing as she does...
I'll have to look up those articles again.

EDIT: found the link i had seen...on Dick Newick's site...
Go to: http://www.wingo.com/newick/traveler.html and scroll down to read the comment...then follow the link called "chasing holes" at the bottom of the comment

[BOAT]

The second video looks like running on a port tack.

Do you have any pictures of a preventer on a mac?

If watch the end of that last vid u,ll notice my hands on the helm r all over the place trying to keep her under control was a work-out for sure but was also lots of fun

Wing on wing is the hardest one to do on the MAC because of the fractional nature of the rig - the headsail is just not high enough to get out of the way of the mast and main and everything else - the main is "okay" but again, the fractional rig means side stays are aft of the mast and they block the main from fully extending - this is a normal issue with fractional rigs and something I had to get used to when I changed from an old 1970's style trailer boat to the new modern 1990's style fractional trailer sailor. I'm still a little unhappy with wing and wing with 'boat' and I really think an asym tied off somewhere higher on the mast would be less flapping around on the front of the boat.

[RobertB]

I learned to surf my when crossing the lower Chesapeake Bay just a little bit off the wind. It was nearly impossible to keep a heading otherwise. The trick is to learn to keep adjusting the motor to stay on the down side of the wave - also picks up about two knots of speed. In my opinion, for big water, this is a skill very useful to learn.