Backstay Install?

[kadet]

guys guys, no worries!!! I wont do what it was that I was seeking advice for. Man I would hate to ask for directions. You guy might tell me where you think I should go instead of where I was asking to go. Geezzzzzz! Answers are hard to come by if they are not popular here!!!

Steer 180 degrees for 4 nautical miles then at the second cardinal mark....

[Highlander]

guys guys, no worries!!! I wont do what it was that I was seeking advice for. Man I would hate to ask for directions. You guy might tell me where you think I should go instead of where I was asking to go. Geezzzzzz! Answers are hard to come by if they are not popular here!!!

No Kidding EH !!

[seahouse]

I do understnad your line of thought leading to the question, Chopper Pilot, though my thoughts apply to when under sail.

One thing I've considered in assessing the strength needed for the rigging while under sail is that the forces on the rigging are limited by the righting moment of the boat. So both a 200 pound force and a 200 ton force, applied at an even (real-life) rate sideways will cause the same strain on the rigging as the boat simply rolls until the force is unloaded. So a boat (like ours, and as mentioned above) that has less ballast and keel and righting moment will require a less strong rigging.

But all bets are off if the force happens in a dead ahead (or dead aft, unlikely) direction. The unloading of the forces will take longer as the boat has to yaw before it rolls, and the strain on the rigging is going to be greater. That's one reason Highlander has (wisely) reinforced and double-up his rigging.

I'm also among those here that are pretty confident that the rigging on our boats is more than adequate and has been designed to withstand these scenarios with a little maintenance and attention. (ie. pre-load etc).
- B.

[BOAT]

Airplane drivers are always popular here - and Chopper Pilots are our favorites. No more freedom that flying a chopper - that's what sailors like - the freedom of movement.

I think what happened here is that you have discovered that even though all us MAC owners say we are immune to the criticism of the MAC is being a 'cheap un-seaworthy boat' the reality is that the same MAC owners that blow off such criticism and say it does not bother them will be the first to attack someone they perceive is criticizing the design of the boat!

The average MAC owner is more mechanically intelligent, and inclined than the average sailboat owner: one of the reasons MAC owners like the MAC is because the design is so simple and sparse - ready to be modified for various uses based on an individual owners needs.

I think many of us in-correctly perceived your comment for the need of a back stay as criticism of the design because that lack of a back-stay is one of the main criticisms owners of other boats make about the MAC on websites like 'Sailboat Anarchy' (or whatever they call it) and other trash blogs.

You were unfairly pegged, and we are sorry. I am pretty well known as a 'troll' here and that is no excuse. Thanks Highlander for correcting us. We love chopper pilots and airplane drivers here - don't be afraid to post here.

[Highlander]

I can just see it Now , U out there in the ocean sailing away close to USA Navy exercises, someone says whats that out there ! Voice from Chopper Pilot looks like an invasive species , Commander be more specific ! Chopper Pilot Trolls Sir ! , Commander to Chopper Pilot U,d better take action on that son ! , Chopper Pilot to Commander initiating action Sir, OK Guy,s let,s take care of that their Troll down there , & so a Troll was had !!!

J

[BOAT]

No joke, I almost got a picture of a Cobra attack chopper coming right in on us in a strafing run like motion right off the coast of Camp Pendleton erlier that same day - at the time I did not think much about it but later I realized he must have been sending pictures back to the ship to make sure I was not some deranged Moslem in a rubber boat full of dynamite. They just don't like small boats moving at high speed near big ships out here. Now if I see a chopper turning on my locations and I am under power near home, I slow down.

Easiest way to get blown right out of the water around here is just head in a straight line at high speed under power towards any Navy ship you see and then hoist a black Taliban flag and watch how fast you get blasted into tiny bits.

[seahouse]

BOAT - Watch out for the autonomous swarm too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTkhBQbZsp0



This one is a bit longer, but tells the story in more detail...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITTvgkO2Xw4

[mastreb]

Well now that it's all free love and happiness, I'll post my experience with mast and rigging strength.

Firstly, if you're going to fly anything off the top of the mast besides the mainsail, you need a backstay period, or you'll bend the top of your mast above the jib hound. The load of the mainsail on the back of the mast is nothing compared to the forward force of a spinnaker pulling the boat. In this case, you should use two backstays going to each side of the aft transom as BOAT suggested so you get some resistance for perpendicular loads as well. Essentially, at this point you'll have a 5-point rig.

Once of the best things about the K&R rig besides the fact that it eliminates the backstay is that it cannot be unbalanced. Your mast may be raked all to cock, but your rigging will be balanced between the side stays and the forestay in terms of the load that they hold. So your tension might be wrong, but it won't be unsafe.

With any more than three points, your rig can be unbalanced, with some of the stays taking the majority load and others taking less or no load, and therefore the rig can be subject to sudden shock-loading when the mast is in dynamic movement. Balancing tension is important if you're using backstays for a chute.

The MacGregor rig is perfectly sufficient for all the loads the boat will normally experience.

When the rig fails, it fails in a surprisingly graceful way:

Spreaders bend first, relieving pressure on the mast but allowing the still-connected stays to prevent the mast from falling all the way over. The mast foot may bend, or the mast may tear at the mast-foot bolt if there is significant sideways movement. This also relieves most if not all pressure on the sails suddenly, and forward motion will slow to a stop even in moderate winds. The Forestay keeps the mast vertical, and it will sway from side-to-side in this condition.

At this point, you just loose the halyard and pull down the main. The rig, while loose, is safe to motor mast up, and you should leave it mast up. Remove the boom if you can safely do so.

If you're lucky, the mast is still straight. If you're slightly unlucky, the mast may be bent, but don't worry: The rig and spreaders will hold a mildly bent mast perfectly in place, and it's safe to operate that way. You'll only see the bend when the mast is down. I ran this way for two years.

If you're unlucky, the mast will have bends in multiple axes of symmetry, and you've got nothing but a potential stub mast for a trawler of value there. The mast and rigging will all need to be replaced.

In any case, having had a few rigging accidents with a Mac, I can say it's a lot safer in failure than any other sailboat I've seen. I'd hate to see what would happen to the big boat if that mast comes crashing down.

It's quite a well balanced boat. You don't want a whole lot heaver rig on it.

Matt

[Russ]

Firstly, if you're going to fly anything off the top of the mast besides the mainsail, you need a backstay period, or you'll bend the top of your mast above the jib hound. The load of the mainsail on the back of the mast is nothing compared to the forward force of a spinnaker pulling the boat.

A proper spinnaker is not attached to the top. It's attached at the hound where all the stays meet.

[dlandersson]

Ummm...I have a backstay (starboard rear). Pretty sure it's original to the boat.

I think many of us in-correctly perceived your comment for the need of a back stay as criticism of the design because that lack of a back-stay is one of the main criticisms owners of other boats make about the MAC on websites like 'Sailboat Anarchy' (or whatever they call it) and other trash blogs.

[Russ]

Ummm...I have a backstay (starboard rear). Pretty sure it's original to the boat.

I think many of us in-correctly perceived your comment for the need of a back stay as criticism of the design because that lack of a back-stay is one of the main criticisms owners of other boats make about the MAC on websites like 'Sailboat Anarchy' (or whatever they call it) and other trash blogs.

Yea, the X has a backstay. Macgregor started using the B&R rig on the M. Hunter now also uses this stay system.
http://www.cruisingworld.com/videos/vid ... he-b-r-rig

It took me a while to get used to it and trust it having always used backstays.

[BOAT]

What, Hunter does not have rotating mast? I guess they are behind.

[Highlander]

OK Chopper Pilot
Here,s another route for u to go that all the nae sayer,s don,t know about

I extended the mast on my from 24' to 28' yep thats right with a backstay , but instead of a 3rd set of masthead shrouds I went with Jumper Struts
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j95/m ... 0003-1.jpg

notice they r forward facing
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j95/m ... 0002-1.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j95/m ... 010001.jpg

This is my own planned rigging design for the
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j95/m ... an0002.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j95/m ... an0001.jpg

here she is
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j95/m ... CN1406.jpg

http://vid78.photobucket.com/albums/j95 ... 010001.mp4

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j95/m ... ing/a1.jpg

http://vid78.photobucket.com/albums/j95 ... 010025.mp4

http://vid78.photobucket.com/albums/j95 ... 010015.mp4

http://vid78.photobucket.com/albums/j95 ... EW_NEW.mp4

Enjoy J

[dlandersson]

Here's another possibility.

http://www.adonisthemovie.com/wp-conten ... 8-10-2.jpg

[kadet]

guys guys, no worries!!! I wont do what it was that I was seeking advice for. Man I would hate to ask for directions. You guy might tell me where you think I should go instead of where I was asking to go. Geezzzzzz! Answers are hard to come by if they are not popular here!!!

Geezzzzzzz he got his answer he did not want to re-rig his boat, or turn it into a cutter, or fly a mast head spinnaker.

He asked a simple question about installing a backstay and pounding on an unmodified rig, got his answer now everyone wants to tell him what else to do..

I am sorry Chopper Pilot if my opinion contributed to this as I thought your original plan was unnecessary as you described it, nothing else.

Regards
PK