Raymarine ST4000 Plus MKII

[Andy26M]

Does anyone have a Raymarine ST4000 Plus MKII autopilot? How about on a 26M?

I just noticed that these newer units have the motor up behind the wheel, instead of the older style where the motor was on the deck and had a belt drive up to the wheel.

I've been planning on getting a SportPilot Plus for a while, but I'm going to have to move my engine controls to fit the SportPilot in. The ST4000+ MKII, however, looks like it might be a better solution for the 26M with its' tubular pedestal mount.

ST4000 Plus MKII

- AndyS

[tidalwave]

I liked the idea that the drive mechanism was tucked in on the wheel rather than a v-belt running between my legs.

The ST4000 can accept NMEA-0183 GPS data from your GPS unit.

The unit requires the installation of a rudder position sensor (included)
to keep the unit from over-seeking positions as it turns the wheel.
I found that the only location which seemed to keep the sensor
out of the way...was to install it upside down on the cabin rear berth
starboard ceiling. The sensor has to bolt to one of the rudder arms
which are located behind the rear berths. I carefully removed one rudder
arm and drilled out a required 1/8 inch hole..for connecting the sensor's attachment rod to the rudder arm. The rudder arm is stainless steel and
I couldn't get enough pressure on my portable drill to drill a bolt hole through the arm. So I removed the arm and used my drill press.
The rudder arm has indexed bolt holes so it can be removed and replaced without loosing the correct orientation between the rudder and the arm.
But because the only way I could install the sensor was up-side-down,
I had to reverse the sensor wires (the instruction booklet is quite clear
on how to do either installation and the wiring). The only hassle was
having to remove and reinstall the rudder ropes which lead down through the rudder arm shaft.

The ST4000 has a flux-gate compass included...the recommended installation location is in the rear cabin ceiling facing forward at the front of the cockpit floor liner.

I installed my main display unit on the port cockpit bulkhead...my cabin switches are directly on the other side of this 'wall' The connection wires
are all spade connectors...easy to push to connect.

Because of the long wiring routing needed to run wires anywhere on a 26 I found that I had to splice a few additional feet to the wiring.
The rudder position sensor just didn't reach the display unit, and nor did
the power wire from the pedestal, which runs the wheel drive. I went two gage sizes thicker for the add-on wires and used marine-type heat-shrink tubing to protect the connections.

I bought two further options for the ST4000 which will really help out in the future:
I replaced the stock Mac 15 inch diameter wheel with an 18-inch Schmidt SS wheel. When the ST4000 drive unit is installed on the stock 15-inch wheel, there was essentially no room between the drive unit and the outer wheel rim. I could just get my fingers wrapped aroung the wheel...
I figured I would not be able to grip the wheel or if the wheel spun, I wouldn't be able to get my fingers out between the narrow gap.

Some forum members have installed even larger wheels...but I felt that
the 18-inch was a good compromise. I got enough finger space and
I didn't have to worry about to much torque on the steering mechanism from turning too large a wheel.

The Schmidt 18-inch stainless wheel looked even better than the Mac 15 incher and was one of the cheapest mods I have put on my boat.

The second option was the RayMar S100 hand held remote for the ST4000. It is a radio-frequency remote with no wires to drag over the deck (as some older remotes). It is about the size of a couple packs of cigarettes, and has a fairly decent LCD screen. It can feed nearly all
the commands as the main bulkhead controller-display. It clips on my
belt...

RayMarine does make an even more sophisticated remote with a large
display screen. I decided I didn't want to carry a remote bigger than
my largest TV learning remote on my belt. I figured it would be in the way more than being a convenience.

[tidalwave]

I am posting a warning about the RayMar St4000+ on a new thread

[dclark]

Works well on my X. As long as there is clearance for the motor arm you should be fine and you have surface space directly behind the wheel for the grey rod (not sure what they call it), you should be fine. You'll probably want to upgrade your wheel to at least 18" but you can start with the stock 15" and decide later.

[Scott]

I also have one that works well on my X. I didnt even use the bracket. I just used industrial cable ties through a couple of holes.

I would think that any fabrication shop or tractor trailer repair shop could fab an extension any size you need in about 10 minutes.

Just weld 3/8 (or whatever dia it is) bar to the end you want extended and grind it smooth.

[Chip Hindes]

I just completed installation of the ST4000 Plus Mk II on my X. I made two custom brackets; one for the torque arm to the pedestal and one for the rudder position sensor, and they look and work great. I'm not familiar with the M pedestal but I'm pretty sure my custom torque arm concept will work for almost any setup.

I'll post pictures as soon as I get them.

One question: has anybody had any luck interfacing the NMEA output of the Garmin 176C; or any Garmin GPS, for that matter, with the ST4000?

They both theoretcally support NMEA 0183. Garmin has "NMEA out" and "NMEA in" wires, while the ST4000 has "NMEA in +" and "NMEA in -" pins. I've connected the wires in every possible combination and always get a "no data" error from the ST4000. And yes, I do have the Garmin communications format set to NMEA out/in.

My Standard Horizon multi function meter also outputs NMEA speed and temperature data and I noticed that it has only one NMEA output wire. No input, no output negative.

The manual states the ST4000 it cannot output NMEA directly; in order to run NMEA out you must do it via the Raymarine proprietary Seatalk port, with a Seatalk-to-NMEA interface. So the question: Why do both Garmin and Standard Horizon think NMEA output requires only one wire, while Raymarine thinks NMEA input requires two? Are these fundamentally incompatible?

I'm a mechanical guy and this electronic stuff is way over my head.

[Moe]

Different NMEA devices do it differently (balanced vs unbalanced). Garmin uses the DC power ground wire as the NMEA - for all its COM ports. To get a device that has + and - lines for each NMEA port, such as an Icom radio, to talk to a Garmin (or vice versa), you have to ground their NMEA - to the negative DC bus. Sounds like the SH meter is like the Garmin.

For sure you want one of the Garmin outputs talking to the autopilot input to feed it cross-track information. Does the autopilot send out the magnetic compass heading from the fluxgate compass that you want to display on the GPS, and thus need the autopilot output to go to a Garmin input?

--
Moe

[mike]

I just completed installation of the ST4000 Plus Mk II on my X. I made two custom brackets; one for the torque arm to the pedestal and one for the rudder position sensor, and they look and work great. I'm not familiar with the M pedestal but I'm pretty sure my custom torque arm concept will work for almost any setup.

Chip, please detail your installation of the rudder position sensor.

One question: has anybody had any luck interfacing the NMEA output of the Garmin 176C; or any Garmin GPS, for that matter, with the ST4000?

They both theoretcally support NMEA 0183. Garmin has "NMEA out" and "NMEA in" wires, while the ST4000 has "NMEA in +" and "NMEA in -" pins. I've connected the wires in every possible combination and always get a "no data" error from the ST4000. And yes, I do have the Garmin communications format set to NMEA out/in.

It's been a while since I wired up all my electronics, but I believe that NMEA- is the same as the unit's ground. I'm not sure why some devices have a seperate NMEA-, but if you connect the NMEA+ OUT of your Garmin to the NMEA+ IN of the ST4000, it should work.

My Standard Horizon multi function meter also outputs NMEA speed and temperature data and I noticed that it has only one NMEA output wire. No input, no output negative.

Some devices won't have an input... your multi function meter, for instance, probably has no need for any NMEA data that would come in (unless it can serve as a repeater for other devices). A wind meter, on the other hand, can not only output wind speed and direction data, but can take GPS or log speed info and compute true wind.

The manual states the ST4000 it cannot output NMEA directly; in order to run NMEA out you must do it via the Raymarine proprietary Seatalk port, with a Seatalk-to-NMEA interface.

This may be true... I seem to recall the ST4000 only having NMEA IN. But in your case, it doesn't sound like you need to get any data OUT of the ST4000... I assume you just want it to be able to track to a GPS waypoint, correct?

In that case, all you need is GPS position data to come in to the ST4000.

Oh, one VERY important note. I'm assuming you're seeing this "No Data" message when you hit the Track button on the ST4000. I'm fairly certain the ST4000 will say this if you don't actually have an active waypoint set on the GPS (in other words, select a waypoint to navigate to before pressing the track button).

--Mike

[Chip Hindes]

Thanks for the quick replies. If I read this right, I simply need to ground the ST4000 NMEA in - , and leave the Garmin GPS NMEA in disconnected since it has nowhere to go. I'll try it tomorrow, and also try to get some pictures.

I did set a phony waypoint for the GPS to chase, it didn't help.

You're right that I have no need to run the autopilot out to anything; For now the plan is only to run GPS data to the autopilot. It would be nice to run the SH multi data into the autopilot as well because the AP is capable of displaying most of the depth/ speed/ temp data on custom pages, and it apparently can also use the speed through water to compute drift corrections. I have moved the multi data display almost out of sight to make room for the AP; however, the NMEA-to-Seatalk interface is quite expensive so I'll skip it for now.

One more question. I eventually want to run the GPS in/out lines to the cabin so I can plug them into the laptop. I assume I can just connect a second wire to the GPS out without exploding something?

[Catigale]

Chip - Im sure Moe will chime in on this but he took me through the same thing with NMEA in/out +_ last year when I struggled with my VHF interface..thread was DUAL VHF to GPS
(couldnt figure out how to paste the thread link, sorry)

Quoting from Moe and Duane on having GPS 'talk' to up to three things

To clarify, that's 3 NMEA inputs to 1 NMEA output. You can't have two "talkers" (NMEA outputs) on the same circuit.

[norbert]

ah4000 vs. sportpilot has been discussed in extenso on this board. a also have a 4000 (an old non st without rudder sensor) and it works well. i recommend a 22' wheel.

[Moe]

Thanks for the quick replies. If I read this right, I simply need to ground the ST4000 NMEA in - , and leave the Garmin GPS NMEA in disconnected since it has nowhere to go.

Correct. More info later.

--
Moe

[Chip Hindes]

Thanks, Moe. Actually, It apears I pushed the panic button too soon. I was relating the problem to my fellow Mac Owner/Electrical Engineer coworker when I noticed in the Garmin GPS manual a wiring diagram which shows the generic autopilot NMEA RXD- wired to chassis ground.

I guess I should have known that in order to wire the autopilot, I should look in the GPS manual. In my defense, my coworker actually stated that the Raymarine manual could have covered this better.

[mike]

You're right that I have no need to run the autopilot out to anything; For now the plan is only to run GPS data to the autopilot. It would be nice to run the SH multi data into the autopilot as well because the AP is capable of displaying most of the depth/ speed/ temp data on custom pages, and it apparently can also use the speed through water to compute drift corrections. I have moved the multi data display almost out of sight to make room for the AP; however, the NMEA-to-Seatalk interface is quite expensive so I'll skip it for now.

Yes, the problem of only being able to have one "talker" is an issue for me too... I want to have my wind instrument sending to the ST4000 too, but I've already got the GPS (which is more important anyway) connected to the NMEA IN. The official solutions are to either get an NMEA multiplexer that can merge the multiple signals into 1, or get the above mentioned Seatalk interface.

My much less expensive alternative solution (which I have not yet implemented, but plan to) is to install a switch that will let me select what is sent to the ST4000's NMEA IN. In my case, this will work fine because I'll either being using the AP in track mode, or in "wind vane" mode, not both at the same time.

--Mike

[Chip Hindes]

Mike, I'd be interested to hear of your results. I had exactly the same idea, but I know you can't just string these things together like Xmas tree lites and expect them to work.

I guess eventually the idea would be the Seatalk to NMEA interface.

Or here's a thought: Stop buying all the different branded stuff, throw everything else away and buy all new Raymarine. So far, despite the minor wiring problem I'm pretty impressed with Raymarine. Conversely, I'm about fed up enough with Garmin I'd dump the GPS if I didn't already have so much money tied up in it.