Transitioning between MacM and Fixed Keel Boat

[Berber Boy]

I have been considering some holidays overseas using a bare boat charter arrangement with a 36-40 ft mono-hull fixed keel type vessel.
In preparation for that I have been taking some of NautEd Online courses in boat maneuvering and docking. The training module has been very useful but it seems to address maneuvering with fixed keel and fixed prop setups only. I was thinking of experimenting with my by isolating the ETEC 60 from the steering setup and using the rudders to steer and practice close quarter turning and docking etc. Obviously I will be limited to low speeds. Does anyone have experience of this type?

1: In terms of comparison what would the differences be between maneuvering a with OB fixed or linked to steering
2: How different would a larger boat be to the MacM with OB fixed centrally? I.e. Is this a legitimate approach to learning in preparation for a Charter boat ?

Appreciate any advice

Dave

[innervations]

A 36-40 foot keelboat is much easier to maneuver in my experience simply because it is not as affected by wind and current as much as a

Yes the boat is much larger but everything happens much slower because of the size and weight. There is also a lot more propeller walk which you can use to rotate the stern port or starboard.

Easiest boat to dock I ever skippered was a 44ft Lagoon catamaran. Thing was almost as wide as it was long but with widely spaced twin engines it would literally turn on it's own axis. Locked the steering in place and just used forward and reverse on each engine to maneuver into tight spaces

[Catigale]

I'll echo that experience. Once you have mastered a water ballasted flat keel Mac you will find docking a keelboat easy once you adjust your time constant

If the prop is in front of the rudder fin it is even easier as you have the low speed steering you don't have on a Mac

[Tomfoolery]

I don't know how useful practicing on the will be, as it's a bit like practicing with a Toyota and a snowmobile trailer in anticipation of driving an 80,000 lb tractor-trailer. The principals may be the same, but the feel will be completely different. There's certainly no harm in it, though.

You'll find with the big boat that everything happens much slower, as already stated, and the mass increases faster than the windage area. With the prop thrust direction fixed (aside from prop walk), you'll find that for docking you steer where you want the boat to go, and use the throttle for slowing/stopping/reversing, whereas on the Mac (with directed thrust), the engine will easily overpower the rudders once the boat is moving slowly enough so you have to steer opposite to what you'd want the rudders to do when in reverse (and moving at creep speed). It took me a while to get used to that aspect when I downsized from a 34 footer to the . I still think the big boat is easier to handle, though, so once you get used to it, I'm sure you will too.

[Russ]

Totally different boats. All the advice above is spot on.

Fixing your outboard will not create anything like a fixed prop that is in front of the rudders. Our Macs don't steer at all at low speed and outboard locked in the center.

A keel boat pivots on the keel. The Mac really doesn't. Keelboat is not affected by wind nearly as much.

Backing is where you need to learn the differences. The Mac will give you no reference point either. You can't learn it in a book either. A keelboat sideways blade pressure will walk it either to port or starboard until you get enough flow over the rudder to steer. Use this to your advantage. I could turn my Hunter in its own footprint using this. Our slip required me to back the opposite direction the boat wanted to back. So I found reversing fast got the boat moving backward so the rudder can work before the sideways blade pressure walked the boat. Once I had motion, I would shift to neutral and let the rudder swing the boat in the direction I needed it to go (opposite the way the blades were pushing).

Unlike our Macs, you can move very slow and have control. Don't depend on reverse to stop you. A heavy boat like that won't stop quickly. And when tying to a pier, use that sideways blade pressure to walk the boat sideways when you put it in reverse.

[Tomfoolery]

Unlike our Macs, you can move very slow and have control. Don't depend on reverse to stop you. A heavy boat like that won't stop quickly.

I was going to mention that and forgot. Russ is quite right - you can make S-turns at creep speed while coasting with that big barn door of a rudder and the momentum of a heavy boat. Turn on a dime, pivoting about the keel. Probably more true for fin or wing keel boats than for full keel 'ocean' boats, though I haven't driven a full keel boat, so couldn't say (I'm sure there are those here who have, though).

And my 2-blade folding prop was the next best thing to a trolling motor in reverse, so a lot of throttle was needed to stop, but I could put it in reverse at part throttle, and steer the boat into its slip with a steady deceleration, without effecting the steering, much like a single-screw trawler. There's a lot to be said for the predictability of such an arrangement, though now that I'm used to my X, there's much to be said for being able to direct the thrust for tricky docking situations, also, like spinning the wheel hard over and burping some reverse to pull the stern into the dock.

They're different. Neither one is necessarily 'better' - just different.

[mastreb]

learn to pivot your Mac in place by turning the wheel and thrusting back-and-forth with the motor. That same trick works well with boats of any size, and is the trick to getting longer boats than ours correctly into their slips without hitting anything.

Beyond that, I concur that the handling is so different as to not be very comparable at all. You'll find that keel boats are much more likely to go exactly where you point them, and that they cannot stop nearly as quickly as a Mac.

[Ixneigh]

Just don't forget that the keel boat draws a lot more
Ix

[Tomfoolery]

Just don't forget that the keel boat draws a lot more

Yeah, and climbing out doesn't make a 20,000 lb boat rise an inch or so like it will with a Mac. Make sure you have SeaTow or Towboat US insurance.

[fishstalker7]

A lot of good advice prior...and no direct correlation between a 26m and a heavy keel boat...but...

in my opinion...the number one thing to consider and understand...

is the wind or the current the prevailing driver when you come into a dock?



if it is the wind...the 26m experience will serve you well.

if it is the current...it will feel foreign to you as you are actually "sailing the keel" of a heavier/slower boat.

I had to bring in a dead engine 44' keel boat with no wind into an ocean inlet once (not my boat...I was a guest captain...captain/owner was below and very ill)...I sailed the keel against a very light...1-2 mph headwind...using a 3-4 knot inbound current and gybing the keel in the current...all the way to a gentle dock. If you understand what the driving/"ruin your landing" force is...you can use it.

In my limited experience with a boards up/ballast in 26m...it's the wind overpowering the current.

With a keel boat, it depends on the current direction and speed versus the wind direction and speed...but one set of variables will prevail...plan/use the driving force (factoring in prop walk).

Always land upwind/current...never had a hard landing doing so....make sure you're not coming in down wind/current or hard cross wind/current. As previous posters have noted...go slow and anticipate=no problems.

Good luck and fair winds,

David

[seahouse]

I've never tried manoeuvring with the motor locked forward (yet!) But I find that the “back and fill” technique mentioned above is much more useful in a keel boat than in our Macs. I spend as much time on my Mac as I do on a 34' Beneteau, and I switch regularly from one to the other.

While it's the only way to get a keelboat to turn on a dime, I find that the Mac will turn almost as tightly by simply using full-deflection steering (to starboard). With the DB full down it just rotates around it like a top. Much more controllable than a back and fill, particularly in wind. And way less wear and tear on the gearcase and motor.

Practise it in a narrow markered channel when no one's around like I did. I was impressed with the boat, and decided then and there that in an emergency I would never attempt a back and fill in a crowded space in the Mac, but would hard over and use throttle control instead, and just reverse if needed.

So the “back and fill” has been discarded from my mental repertoire of reaction options in an emergency situation while in the Mac. And I would want to be well-practised in open water before attempting it in a crowded marina with a keelboat though.

Prop walk is much more prominent on keelboats, but by how much depends on the prop, keel, rudder and hull shape configuration and combination. If you back out of a tight slip with the dock on the starboard side and don't allow for prop walk you'll collide with the dock every time; the stern will pull toward the dock.

In close manoeuvring you'll want to disengage and engage gear then back to neutral repeatedly to maintain just enough way to keep rudder control and use the inertia of the boat, which is something the Mac lacks, even with full ballast.

Maybe you'll luck out and get a charter with bow thrusters, or a Beneteau Sense.

You'll probably already know this stuff anyway from the course, and that's most of the battle. The academics then just need to be “fixed” in your mind by practise.

-B.

[mastreb]

Don't be afraid to sidle up to the end of the dock finger and line handle the boat into the slip if getting in safely is beyond your skill (presuming of course that your neighbors are not overhanging their slips and that the slips have full fingers). I'd use a fore-to-aft dockline for that so a single person can maneuver the boat. Also keep a long boat-hook at the ready and be prepared to use it.

Also study the use of spring lines. Our boats are small enough and maneuverable enough to rarely ever require their use, but it's damned handy knowledge in tight quarters.

[yukonbob]

We rented a three storey 75 ft house boat this last summer and everything about things going slower but easy is spot on. Almost all the same tricks work. I was completely surprised at how easy it really was. It felt like I was driving a ferry. Wind would catch it for sure, but with the extra weight it didn't really matter.

[Berber Boy]

Thanks for all the really helpful comments and advice. They make a lot of sense. I have never tried to pivot my MAcM on itself in a tight circle so will give it a go. I generally sail on inland waters where there is not a lot of marine traffic so manouvering is generally no problem.

Cheers

Dave