Running in heavy winds

[Ixneigh]

Departing from Elliott's key where I had attended a small sail meet with several other power sailors, I had winds from nearly dead aft. With the full main up in three footers, the yacht exceeded 7 knots several times at one point reaching 7.9 knots. This got me thinking about running back stays again. I had wanted to reef the main and put out a jib to see if I could get that planning effect going that they mentioned in the sales literature... but did not want to risk breaking something to do it. Winds were 20-25.
I'm looking at dyneema line and attaching it to the upper shroud fittings (hound) and using one of the stern cleats to secure it at deck.
The boat rounded up a couple of times, but that safeguard will probably not exist while running a headsail in these conditions. Otherwise steering was easy and responsive. No quarter wave even a six plus knots ( near hull speed)
I could imagine 10 kn with a good spinnaker.
Ix

[yukonbob]

I've given that some thought as well. We encounter a dead aft wind 99% of the time for the 16 miles back to our home port from the nearest town. Usually in higher winds 25-35kt I'll generally just use the jib. However this does not sail nearly as well, it pulls from the front and the back end can get a little squirley in the waves. This last summer we decided to run back to port with the main alone and got stuck with the full main up in 25 gusting to 35 (long story) for the first five or six miles. Even with the full main up (i was spilling as much wind as possible) the boat handled better than the jib alone, and the mast didn't come crashing down. However it would be great piece of mind to have something, anything running from the mast aft.

[kadet]

You only need a backstay on a B&R rig when you start running full height as opposed to fraction rigged headsail. The swept back spreaders apply the rearward force via the sidestays eliminating the need for any backstay. Your forestay is only 3.2mm compared to 2 x 4 mm sidestays which are taking the sail force. The weak point of failure will be the forestay regardless of any backstay on not.

[yukonbob]

You only need a backstay on a B&R rig when you start running full height as opposed to fraction rigged headsail. The swept back spreaders apply the rearward force via the sidestays eliminating the need for any backstay. Your forestay is only 3.2mm compared to 2 x 4 mm sidestays which are taking the sail force. The weak point of failure will be the forestay regardless of any backstay on not.

I know but there is a tremendous amount of force being put on the mast base and lower shrouds. A back stay might help alleviate some of that tension. Also at the same time these are light boats.

[kadet]

I know but there is a tremendous amount of force being put on the mast base and lower shrouds. A back stay might help alleviate some of that tension. Also at the same time these are light boats.

How are are you going to relieve tension by transferring it to the weakest point being the forestay? It may give peace of mind but it is a false sense of security.
The only major force on the mast base in a proper tuned rig should be a compression force.
I say again your lower shrouds are far stronger than your forestay so taking the load off them will do nothing to strengthen the rig.
If you are concerned of the forces on the rig reduce the force by reducing sail. Or strengthen the rig all round not just adding a backstay or in this case a running backstay.

If you intend to use it to induce mast bend to tension the forestay for performance then I see the advantage to adding one. If however as your post reads you are doing it for peace of mind please don't think you have strengthen your rig so you can carry more sail than the rig can safely handle in the conditions, because you have not.

[raycarlson]

Sounds like a very good idea to me based on the rule that all macs are built to the extreme light and least expensive model. It would at least be good insurance in case something broke and would give you time and a second chance to reduce sail before something bad happened.Better safe than sorry

[kadet]

Sounds like a very good idea to me based on the rule that all macs are built to the extreme light and least expensive model. It would at least be good insurance in case something broke and would give you time and a second chance to reduce sail before something bad happened.Better safe than sorry

There in lies the problem it sounds like a good idea but in reality it does nothing. The geometry of a B&R rig is 120 x 3. Adding a backstay so it is 120 120 60 60 achieves nothing to adding support unless you completely redesign the rig. If any one of the original three stays fails under load the rig is coming down backstay or no backstay as the remaining angles will always be equal or greater than 180.

And as fair the relative merits of the Mac $$$ savings 3.2 and 4mm shrouds on a light displacement trailer sailer with about 27sq metres of sail is pretty standard across the board. 3.2 mm wire has a breaking load of almost 1000kg 4mm close to 1500kg. The rigs on these boats may seem small but are more than up to the task. I used to sail beach cats that carried about the same amount of sail on lighter rigs than the , though our rig insurance was to capsize or pitch pole .

[yukonbob]

Sounds like a very good idea to me based on the rule that all macs are built to the extreme light and least expensive model. It would at least be good insurance in case something broke and would give you time and a second chance to reduce sail before something bad happened.Better safe than sorry

There in lies the problem it sounds like a good idea but in reality it does nothing. The geometry of a B&R rig is 120 x 3. Adding a backstay so it is 120 120 60 60 achieves nothing to adding support unless you completely redesign the rig. If any one of the original three stays fails under load the rig is coming down backstay or no backstay as the remaining angles will always be equal or greater than 180.

Absolutely, as a static rig; and running downwind with the headsail takes pressure off the forestay and transfers it to the upper shrouds, chainplates and the fore end of the mast base as it is on a pivoting hinge. Taking even a hundred pounds off the rig and transferring it to the back will do nothing? It won't stop the mast from coming down if the forestay fails but would alleviate some pressure to the shrouds, and as you pointed out anyone of the three would cause a de-masting. However this would only be effective running, and for me almost every weekend we end up in following seas for a minimum of 16 nm. I'm not overly concerned about it, and probably won't do the mod as I've already upgraded all the rigging and the full enclosure is more useful than the bs.

[Steve K]

kadet is correct on this

And adding a backstay to a fractional rig only effects the top few feet of the mast anyway. My D boat has a backstay (from the factory) and having added an adjustable purchase to it, I can tell you that it can overpower the top few feet of the mast and easily bend it.

In the case of losing another stay, a backstay would insure destruction of the section in most cases.

As long as you keep the rig in good tune and inspect attachments regularly (including all cable eyes) these boats are proven to take more than the average sailor can. You have to remember...... these boats have light rigs because threy are verey light boats. When you start beeifing one thing (like adding shrouds and stays or oversizing wire for them) it only moves the force to whatever the weakest link is.
The M has a heavier mast section than the X and the Classics. There is nothing to worry about. Lots of boats are without backstays nowadays. And with the transom configuration on the X/M boats, where are you going to attach it
The X boat has a backstay on one side of the transom and it doesn't work. (only works on one tack and is loose on the other) So now you need a split or double back stay (I highly recommend a split backstay on all X boats to center the pull on the mast top)

I haven't done it in my D boat yet, (been in the 9s in knots though) but I did make double digit speeds on my X boat several times, running with main and 150 headsail. It's a blast . The X boat was great going dead downwind. You need good balance and having two sails up contributes to that. You'll be busy and it's probably best to have some crew to help handle the sheets and tiller/wheel, but I have done it single handed in some pretty crazy winds.

I remember one time, when I was new at it, I was rocking along with my hair on fire in about 30knt wind and it suddenly occurred to me I was running out of lake and I didn't really know how to stop this thing I found that doing a 180 can get the spreaders wet, if not done correctly Guess I turned the wrong way and when the boom came across I thought it was going to break off or rip the mast right off the boat. The only harm done was to my pride

BTW, You can sail these boats with only a head sail, (in moderate conditions) BUT fractional rigs are not made to sail on head sail alone and I would say (and I'm no expert by any means) that sailing in high winds with only a head sail is the easiest way to damage or lose your rig. On the other hand, sailing dead downwind with only a main can present control issues when wind and waves get crazy. Again, balance is the key.

Bottom line is............ These boats are tougher than what most of us could ever take and are very forgiving when the skipper does make a mistake. And remember, they have been engineered by people who are engineers and even if they look minimal in some ways, they are more than capable for the task. (and today's tort law helps insure that )

One more thing......
AS kadet also said, the forestay is the lightest wire on the boat. This is also for a reason and I wouldn't increase it's size. There is nothing wrong with tying one end of your spinnaker halyard to the bow pulpit for insurance.

As I said.... I'm no expert..... JMHO

Best Breezes,
Steve K.

[Nautek]

This is a comon problem with vessels sailed by non professionals
It is like saying the boats are not good enough for coastal cruising
It it usually not the boat that cannot handle the conditions but the crew

These rigs have been designed using engineering principals
Changing the design changes the equation for the whole rig

Never sail in the other man's wind eg just because he has a backstay on his boat doesn't mean you need one on your boat

There are a lot of M's out there and you do not read of masts crashing down
That must say something

If it makes you more comfortable put one on but as Kadet says it probably won't be a huge benifit but if doing it gives you peace of mind then go for it

Allan

[BOAT]

The M boat is too light to need a back-stay - (it would do no good). You can pull the boat right out of the water with the rig as it is, like the guy said - you would pitch pole forward before you would snap the side stays, and you would break the mast before you would lose the side stays.

There are back-stays on most all the other boats in the water because all the other boats are VERY VERY heavy with huge lead keels and stuff under water and if a gust hits one of those boats there is no give at all - the heavy boat is not gonna move so something else could break before the boat starts to move - but under the same conditions on a MAC M boat the boat is going to move and move fast before any side stays or a mast breaks. The boat is just not heavy enough to fight it's own rigging to the point of failure - the boat is gonna get knocked around before the rigging fails.

It's no use to run a back stay because you already have enough wire there to lift the boat out of the water - why add enough to lift TWO boats?

I just can't see what good it would do on such a light boat. ? Could it help at all? If the rig is gonna break how would a back-stay help? The mast is still coming down with or without the back stay, so I don't understand what the point of the rear stay would be. I can't see how it would help.

I do understand the concept of using a spinnaker halyard to back up the fore-stay and I do that on 'boat' too like a lot of other guys here but it's only to prevent the mast from falling in a fore-stay failure, it's not for making the rigging any stronger or make it take more abuse. I would never be able to get the spin' halyard tight enough to do that anyways because rope stretches too much compared to wire.

It's just a safety line in case the pin falls out or something like that. What would a back-stay prevent??? If you lose a side stay the mast is till going down with or without a back-stay. I could be looking at it all wrong but I just can't see how it would help.

[yukonbob]

- why add enough to lift TWO boats?

Why not?
Permanent and running BS on fractional boats are very common. Without getting into the rotating mast and the loading of individual side stays, if I or anyone else wanted to add one what is it to anyone else. Why would it have to be braided cable, why not Dyneema, hull why not yellow braided nylon? If it doesn't do anything then why should anyone else care?

[BOAT]

Well, I must admit - it would make a nice place to hang the boom instead of using that stupid topping lift that bangs around all day while sailing.
(It makes a fine place to fly flags too!)

[yukonbob]

Especially with that braided yellow nylon

[Ixneigh]

Well ok then. Guess I don't need it. I have increased the heads stay wire but have done nothing else. I'll be ordering a coastal cruising sail from Judy soon.
I understand that the prudent sailor adjusts the sail for the conditions. I also will drive the boat hard and am willing to do upgrades if needed with that in mind. The old saw used to be, off the wind, the crew can take more then the yacht can, but on the wind, the reverse is true. That said sometimes, the only way to get somewhere is to sail the boat to its limits. Its good to know what those are. I think the skegs I have help control down wind.
the conditions I had were par for the Bahamas. Its obvious the OEM sails are not up to it.
I will pursue the double digit speed readings...(in knots) and leave the rigging as is.
thanks
ix