Gotta gotta cut loose

[mastreb]

So I'm ordering new sails for next season, and will be going loose footed for two reasons:

1) Everyone recommends it (well, JudyB anyway)

2) I'm going to develop an entirely new boom with rotation built-in, and it will not have a bolt-rope slot.

So I'm wondering how vangs work with a loose footed sail. Do they do anything at all? The sail is connected only at the tack and clew unless I'm mistaken, so it's hard to see how bending the boom in the middle would have any effect.

Any insight on loose footed sails? It won't be possible to use my rotating boom with a vang (or boomkicker, despite the fact that I like them). The mainsheet will attach after the clew at the end of the boom on a de-rotator that the topping lift also attaches to, which I know is a bit aft for a mainsheet but should be fine with our boat's relatively short foot.

Matt

[Crikey]

So I'm ordering new sails for next season, and will be going loose footed for two reasons:
1) Everyone recommends it (well, JudyB anyway)
2) I'm going to develop an entirely new boom with rotation built-in, and it will not have a bolt-rope slot.
So I'm wondering how vangs work with a loose footed sail. Do they do anything at all? The sail is connected only at the tack and clew unless I'm mistaken, so it's hard to see how bending the boom in the middle would have any effect.
Any insight on loose footed sails? It won't be possible to use my rotating boom with a vang (or boomkicker, despite the fact that I like them). The mainsheet will attach after the clew at the end of the boom on a de-rotator that the topping lift also attaches to, which I know is a bit aft for a mainsheet but should be fine with our boat's relatively short foot.
Matt

Whoa... you just shot down an entire post that I made about the Vang and Kicker! I'm still thanking you for the last, however.
Is what you're really talking about is sleeved boom roller reefing? I know you did Seahouse's mod which was/is very cool, but wasn't conducive to reefing, only stowing.

Ross

[BOAT]

Goofy foot?, oh man, you talkin' full on fiddle block reefing or just a loose foot shelf with a tack and an out-haul clew at the bottom? Same sail, just no foot shelf, right?

If that's where your going then all I can say is GREAT! Welcome back to old school!! When we attach our sails with only the clew and the tack it allows so much more shape control and sort of forces us to bag our sails but really, it's SO EASY with a footless main. In fact the first sail I had with 'boat' was bolted so I always had to fold and the best way to fold a main is with THE FOOT LOOSE! Just grab the sail at the out haul and start folding towards the mast, then when you get tot the mast just let down the sail as you roll it up into a little neat pillow.

As for sailing - loose footed has some special options you can't get with a bolted shelf - for one - you actually get to USE your out-haul to do something effective if you go loose footed. With the outhaul you can create all kinds of neat shapes if the foot is loose. We had those kinds of mains on our little dingys and our sailboards when we were kids, but I never had one on the bigger boat! I crewed on a 1840's Baltimore Clipper rig and all those are loose footed - it's really nice - I sort of like them, I can't see why they would not work just as well on a big boat. Wow, what fun!! So Judy has a goofy foot for the MAC?? That's sounds so cool! Can I get one? How much are they? I would like to have one for special situations like racing in light gusts and stuff - I sure bet the are easy to stow!

So, how much?

P.S. you will need a pulley on your out-haul if you go loose footed ( I got a block from BWY that works okay, but I don't use their jam cleat - it's too small and flimsy).

[Johnacuda]

I am not sure about a roller boom setup, but with my loose-footed main, the vang works a before. I don't see any bend in the boom when I haul down on the vang. The entire boom pivots downward stretching the leech of the sail flatter.

[bscott]

I am not sure about a roller boom setup, but with my loose-footed main, the vang works a before. I don't see any bend in the boom when I haul down on the vang. The entire boom pivots downward stretching the leech of the sail flatter.

X2--I'm loose footed but you can bend the boom if you go any bigger than a 4:1 vang.
The only drawback is there is no place to stow all the reefing lines in the loose foot.

Bob

[Judy B]

So I'm ordering new sails for next season, and will be going loose footed for two reasons:

1) Everyone recommends it (well, JudyB anyway)

2) I'm going to develop an entirely new boom with rotation built-in, and it will not have a bolt-rope slot.

So I'm wondering how vangs work with a loose footed sail. Do they do anything at all? The sail is connected only at the tack and clew unless I'm mistaken, so it's hard to see how bending the boom in the middle would have any effect.

Any insight on loose footed sails? It won't be possible to use my rotating boom with a vang (or boomkicker, despite the fact that I like them). The mainsheet will attach after the clew at the end of the boom on a de-rotator that the topping lift also attaches to, which I know is a bit aft for a mainsheet but should be fine with our boat's relatively short foot.

Matt

HI Matt,

On a big boat, the main job of the vang is to keep the boom from bouncing up and down when you're on a deep reach or a run in waves. It is particularly effective when you're on a run or a reach and the mainsheet has no vertical purchase to keep the boom down.

SEcondly, the vang can be used to pull the whole boom down, and reduces twist in the mainsail by pulling clew down.

The vang won't bend the boom any more (or less) with a loose footed sail than with a bolt-rope-footed sail. Having a bolt rope on the mainsail foot doesn't add any appreciable rigidity to the boom. If the boom is gonna bend, it's gonna bend, and a footed vs loose-footed sail won't make any difference.

(On dinghies with bendable masts, it puts a compressive load on the boom, pushing it against the mast. and pulling down on the leech. This bending the mast forward in the middle and pulls the mast head aft, thereby flattening the draft in the mainsail and depowering it. But not on a Mac26 mast.)

The big advantage of having a loose foot is that your outhaul actually has an effect on the draft shape ! You can pull it as flat as a board, or set a deep draft, depending on the wind strength.

You're going to love the loose foot.

Fair winds, Judy

[BOAT]

I really really HATE sail slugs and I prefer a BOLTED LUFF on my main because it's faster - but on the foot I'm just the opposite. I think the foot should be loose footed because even on a sail with a bolted foot ALL the support is still coming from ONLY the tack and the clew! The bolt in the foot offers NOTHING in the support of the sail, so WHY BOLT IT??? Back in the olden days almost all sails were loose footed, I do not know why all modern boats had a bolted foot? Why do they do that? Does Judy or anyone know? (I sure don't).

Think about it - when your main is reefed it's also loose footed.

[Catigale]

Of course Judy knows....if you buy her sail she will write the answer on a tell-tale and include it for free...

[mastreb]

Crikey, I like the boomkicker to be sure, and will be keeping it along with the original boom, but it's difficult to use with Brian's roller-furling gooseneck.

The experience of using Brian's gooseneck has convinced me that:

1) I have to have the roller furling. It's so much better for storage and trailering than anything else we've done, and makes it easier to manage the mainsail and boom when rigging on and off the trailer.

2) I need to make the furling easier, and I'd really like to be able to reef. With Brian's gooseneck we have to have a person at the mast and one in the cockpit to keep everything well managed. It's difficult to furl single-handed. I've tried the Inmon roller furler, but it's simply too large for trailering and it projects all the way back into the cockpit.

What I've learned from Brian's gooseneck is that the axis of rotation of the boom must align perfectly with the center axis of the gooseneck, or the rotation offset will cause the gooseneck to "knuckle" and rotate the mast. That's what we spend most of the time managing when we furl with his gooseneck. Unfortunately it's really hard to figure out where the axis of rotation actually is on a non-round boom.

The design I'm working on now is exactly what you intuited: A sleeved roller boom. Basically I'll have a 1.5" O.D. aluminum pipe that connects to the standard MacGregor gooseneck and then goes back 10', where it has an end-cap with a rotating pin for the topping lift, a padeye for the mainsheet, and a cleat for the roller furling line. This pipe will be sleeved with a 2" aluminum pipe that rides on ceramic roller bearings from VXB, and fixed in position with HDPE grommets that will be pop-riveted on.

The sleeved pipe will have the tack padeye and the outhaul cleat on it, as well as a spool for the roller-furling line.

Hoisting the mainsail will spool up the furling line, and hauling the furlerline will downhaul the mainsheet. Cleating off the furling line and tensioning the main halyard will reef the sail.

The parts are all simple stock parts, so it it should be a very simple build. I'm going to size it to the loose footed mainsail from JudyB when I get it.

Worst case, the roller furling won't work and I'll just have a lighter weight boom for a loose-footed sail.

Anyway, this design won't support a vang or a boomkicker, and when furled the main won't act like a loose-footed sail.