Plant Shuttered, Doors Closed.

[RobertB]

When the laws get to be common regulating VOCs from fiberglass resin, most likely there will be modified low VOC resins available. I was at the F-16 plant in Fort Worth Texas when we eliminated all VOCs and other nasties from F-16 production. Just need an incentive and things will happen. Florida does not seem to be as militant about environmental issues as California and probably will be more willing to work with industry versus just legislate them out of the state.

[BOAT]

All of Florida does not look like Miami and all of California does not look like LA - yes, that was my original point - so why would the VOC laws put upon LA be required on ALL of California even though there is NO pollution problem down here and in Newport where the boats and surfboards are made?? Because (like I said) legislators do not write environmental laws for a town, they wright them for the whole state. Just like the Feds impose rules on the entire country because of something that happened in Boston, the same goes in the states. As Miami goes, so goes Florida. It does not matter that Florida does not look like Miami or California does not look like Los Angeles.

You think I was smart enough to figure this all out on my own? No way - I was TOLD these things by the very people we are talking about in this blog. Rogers kids know darn well there is no future in fiberglass and selling the 26M is NOT their main goal for the future. Same with the Hobie family - (they sold out too - and those in charge now are putting all their eggs in the poly boats (dry powder rotomolding) - I think, (not sure) that Tattoo is envisioning a breakthrough in the epoxy composite process and I think they have good research cuz of Roger, he said many times that a breakthrough in material would come someday.

In the meantime - as you say - Tattoo will sell the MACm to all who want one as long as it's "legal" to make it - no dispute there, but if YOU were the owner and it was YOUR 2 million bucks in molds and machines and manufacturing on the line would YOU put all your money and 10 years of future research into fiberglass?? Do YOU have that much faith in your Florida legislators?? Would you put 2 million of YOUR money into the future of Florida Fiberglass?? HMMM?

Just try to say yes to that.

[RobertB]

Many breakthroughs are already there - mainly a matter of capital to redo tooling and manufacturing processes. I was there when we developed the tooling for the new generation of plastic planes (YF-22 and A-12). I do not think these processes (mainly involving new resins cured in large autoclaves) are attainable for smaller $$$ operations like a MacTat. If the situation was really expected to be so dire in Florida, I question the sanity of setting up a new operation to build the 26M. I still expect the improvements to make these more environmentally friendly to manufacture will center around reformulation of the resins used. As long as the off-gassing is reduced/eliminated/contained, they should be fine and our beloved boats will continue to be built. On the other hand, if Florida decides to commit industrial suicide like California, there is always Texas

[Russ]

if YOU were the owner and it was YOUR 2 million bucks in molds and machines and manufacturing on the line would YOU put all your money and 10 years of future research into fiberglass?? Do YOU have that much faith in your Florida legislators?? Would you put 2 million of YOUR money into the future of Florida Fiberglass?? HMMM?

Just try to say yes to that.

With all due respect, I wouldn't put $2 million into what Roger Macgregor says. He built some great boats and lucked out on a great niche that nobody wanted to seriously compete in. But he's no great seer in the boat building future. Maybe Warren Luhrs would get my ear.

As long as the off-gassing is reduced/eliminated/contained, they should be fine and our beloved boats will continue to be built. On the other hand, if Florida decides to commit industrial suicide like California, there is always Texas

Agreed.

[BOAT]

I don't know if Florida would pass VOC laws, or Texas or whomever - but I have no Doubt that the same FEDERAL pressures that were put on Sacratomato to do what they did will indeed come to bear on other states depending on the amount of money in their respective state coffers. You may say "well, it's a long way's off" but no matter "how long" do you put up 2 mil of YOUR bucks on "How Long"?

I think the MAC M boat is not the issue - those molds are done - the design is done - no mo money will be spent on the MAC M - it's just profit - There is no risk at all in making the M boat -

This issue is FUTURE boats - I doubt people will want to buy today's MAC M and it's 1990's technology as a brand new boat in the year 2020 even if the molds really could last that long (which they cant).
You see, that's the rub, you need to spend 2 million for factory setup, molds, design, facilities, labor and training to create the 'stuff' you need to build the boat in the first place - and that 'stuff' has to pay you back over time - your not going to get your 2 million bucks back selling 80 boats for 23 grand, because your SPENDING 20 grand every time you build a boat on material, labor, sales people, facilities, taxes, and a whole host of other things including your lobbyist in Tallahhassee.

If there is a breakthrough in materials, the boat builders in business now would stand to do really well, they already have resources - I think Tattoo is smart of get some infrastructure set up and going - it will give them an edge on the start-ups that always come out of nowhere if that magic material is indeed discovered - but really, history has told us that it's in the start-ups that most magic usually get's discovered. The question you need to ask is: WHO is right now experimenting the most on new materials and WHERE are they? Answer those two questions and you probably will know where the next real boat explosion is going to happen, if at all.

It's not surprising to me that Roger has shrunk his entire set up into what is merely a skunk-works, It's like he's going back to square one. Anyways, I know that a LOT of people in the business are trying to figure out what the new material is going to be. Everyone is going back to the drawing board.

[Russ]

It's not surprising to me that Roger has shrunk his entire set up into what is merely a skunk-works, It's like he's going back to square one.

Well, I thought that was the idea of retirement. Pass the business (or in this case molds) to your kids and relax.

Roger seems to be preoccupied with his new racing boat, the 70 with super expensive components and such. He's not looking for a new business model. I suppose he'd build you one if you asked, but I doubt it will be marketed.

Macgregor wasn't cutting edge in the boat building industry when he left it. There are many more high tech builders out there now. He sold every boat he was allowed to build to a well received market. Good way to go out.

--Russ

[BOAT]

No doubt - and as for his boat - who KNOWS why he builds them, heck, who knows why he sails them! All I know is that he does. He sails his big 65 all by himself all the way to Catalina all the time.

That's what I'm gonna do next month, I'm gonna just sail to Catalina and anchor out in Goat Harbor and sit there eating a sandwich. That's it.

I may not be able to go below at night to a nice hot shower and satellite TV and a big comfy bed with a private bathroom, but I do the best I can.

You guys have been pretty nice putting up with all my bull, your all good people. I really do wonder sometimes what it's gonna be like 20 years from now. It's stupid for me to even think about it - I have no horse in the race, 100 people and their families are not depending on me for a job 10 years from now, I can't imagine why I even think about such things - I guess I have hung around those people so much I start to think like them. I know it's silly.

[Divecoz]

Florida wants industry.. Industry that isn't tied to Tourism or Retirees.. We have very little Industry down here.. Is it a matter of being Business Friendly or not careing about anything but the jobs created $$ .. I spent a lot of time in Mexico.. Go Figure ... Mexico wants Industry as well and they too, are willing to look past long term problems and issues for short term gains..
Roger was building OVER 300 boats a year.. Thats a LOT of boats.. a lot of VOC's.. Roger could still build boats in Ca. But it would now require MAJOR capital investments to update his processes... He's 70 Y.O. We may each alive to be 85...... but the quality of life does NOTHING but digress after some point ..

[BOAT]

Divercoz is totally right - sometimes a place will do anything or over look anything to bring in the jobs. That was LA in the 1940's and 50's and 60's. Factories would be right next door to your house. There is a town here called Riverside where they still do that. As a kid it was great because I could get a HIGH PAYING factory summer job within walking distance every year. And then people started to notice that in the summer it was hard to breathe the air. In the 60's after a day of play outside our lungs would hurt.

After the space thing in the 60's everything shifted to the environment.

So, the regulations came - it's all documented facts. The whole cycle from industrialization to regulation was about 30 years.

I don't understand why you folks don't think the same thing would happen somewhere else? To me it seems so obvious, yet most of you think I'm nuts. Oh well, I probably am. Everyone else thinks so too - so I can't fault you guys.

[kmclemore]

I don't understand why you folks don't think the same thing would happen somewhere else?

Well, I think some of that may be driven by the geographic features of the two regions. Southern California is mostly a basin with mountains to the east... as a result airborne pollutants tend to be trapped and accumulate. In addition, due to that geography you tend to get temperature inversions which held all that pollution over the cities, resulting in the 'hurt lungs' you felt in the 60's and the understandable public revolt against such pollution. However in Florida it's a very flat peninsula with steady prevailing winds, and as such any fumes tend to ultimately blow out to sea. This means that it may not be as much of a problem for the local population and consequently would not drive the same need for change which we saw in California.

[dlandersson]

But...but...but...what about the people sailing to Bermuda? And the poor fishees?....

I don't understand why you folks don't think the same thing would happen somewhere else?

Well, I think some of that may be driven by the geographic features of the two regions. Southern California is mostly a basin with mountains to the east... as a result airborne pollutants tend to be trapped and accumulate. In addition, due to that geography you tend to get temperature inversions which held all that pollution over the cities, resulting in the 'hurt lungs' you felt in the 60's and the understandable public revolt against such pollution. However in Florida it's a very flat peninsula with steady prevailing winds, and as such any fumes tend to ultimately blow out to sea. This means that it may not be as much of a problem for the local population and consequently would not drive the same need for change which we saw in California.

[BOAT]

In the immortal words of Mayor Sam Yorty: "Damned the fishies! Full speed ahead!"

Yup - based on what I have seen in the gulf in regards to oil rigs and the refineries in Beaumont I guess I better understand the future of Florida. They don't have oil rigs over here - there are only a few left in Long Beach and they disgised them as "Islands" with palm trees and waterfalls and fake houses so it looks like fantasy island - might be a good place to launch the first "Tattoo" - "Hey Boss!" "Look! dey PLANE, dey PLANE!"

We are trying to go back to a desert over here, Mulholland would turn in his grave, but "Hey, what are ya gonna do? It's China Town!"

Sorry for the Hollywood cliches but it's a industry staple out here. I never in a million years thought my next new car would be manufactured in California, but if you want the best - what are you gonna do?

[kmclemore]

But...but...but...what about the people sailing to Bermuda? And the poor fishees?....

Fishies don't vote or contribute to PAC's.

(At least certain political parties haven't yet found a way to have them vote... however, given they've got dead people, cats and dogs voting I'm sure it's not far off, though...)

[Ixneigh]

Haha I laugh at California. They are worried about voc what about the 4643468732678 cars driving on the roads every day?
the next thing for boating will be cheap carbon and epoxy construction. Light and strong. Everything will be made from this. Cars tools even building parts. Think about a car top dinghy that weighs 30 pounds. Our glass boats will seem as quaint and old fashioned as planked wooden boats do today.
Ix

[Crikey]

Haha I laugh at California. They are worried about voc what about the 4643468732678 cars driving on the roads every day?
the next thing for boating will be cheap carbon and epoxy construction. Light and strong. Everything will be made from this. Cars tools even building parts. Think about a car top dinghy that weighs 30 pounds. Our glass boats will seem as quaint and old fashioned as planked wooden boats do today.
Ix

Agree with the Carbon thing. What will eventually put us in our graves will provide the box for it as well. Ironic!