Degree of a 26X before she rolls?

[DaveB]

Russ,
I agree with you. Even last weekend coming back from Cayo Costa winds were around 15 knots with gusts at 20-25 at rare times.
On my way back a 28nm trip was passed only by two boats, a 33 ft Beaunta with reefed main and a 27 ft under full main and 130.
I couldn't Identify the 27 and was a classic with 3 port hole windows (Not A Watkins, Compac or any other design I know, but he had to heave a lot of lead and deep keel to carry that amount of Sail).
Both were doing around 6 knots were I was at 5.5 knots. I was feeling every wave but both boats probably didn't feel a thing on 3 ft. chops.
I didn't care as I was a trailer Sailor and went were I was going and returned.
Did catch up with them rounding St James City ,wind dead on the nose. Power on at 7 knots.
Cat and mouse game, who won.? 50hp..
Dave


[quote="RussMT"]There is nothing "wrong" with our boats. They are what they are. Light, easily trailered, large cabin power sailors. They are NOT keel boats and they are not fast sailing boats. With all these features, weight is the biggest compromise. Weight that keeps your Aquarius 23 really heavy and stable. My Hunter could pound through waves and was very slow to react to wind. But it had 5000 pounds of steel under her. The Mac only weighs 2500 pounds which makes it very easy to trailer. With all that said, the Mac is a remarkably stable and safe boat. It is VERY tender at first until the ballast kicks in. This takes some getting used to if you come from a traditional ballasted boat. The same high freeboard that gives her lots of cabin room also gives her lots of windage. Racing class boats like J boats have little or no cabin and low profiles. Different boat, different end user.
I bought my Mac because I want to trailer and launch it myself. Bring it home and work on it if I want to and have a decent amount of cabin for family to sleep in. It's perfect for us, yet I know the limitations and won't take it out in heavy winds and seas. Just not prudent with the experience of my crew.

I also agree with you and coz. There is a sweet spot with Mac that is more heel than most boats. It has a lot of weather helm which I find to be a safe thing. I only worry about snapping a rudder or steering component.

[BOAT]

We got 5.2 knots here as the GPS flies last Saturday in 10 to 12 mph winds! Can's do THAT in a big fat heavy boat!

[mastreb]

We got 5.2 knots here as the GPS flies last Saturday in 10 to 12 mph winds! Can's do THAT in a big fat heavy boat!

That's about right. Macs generally make about 50% of windspeed when sailed correctly. High performance monohulls can approach 100%, and multihulls and canted-keel boats can approach 200%.

[DaveB]

Get the Rail down in 15knots (thats about 17.5 mph in your speed) wind beating and make 6.2 knots, gusting to 22 Knots. Heel 15-25 degrees.
Thats on a furled 105 jib, no main up.
I personally like 10-15 degree heel beating to Windward as my youthful years are long past and just like to crank your tractor a wee bit.
Remember any heel past 15 degrees you are just giving up forward speed and making a lot of leeway.
Dave

We got 5.2 knots here as the GPS flies last Saturday in 10 to 12 mph winds! Can's do THAT in a big fat heavy boat!

[Johnacuda]

sounds like everyone had fair-winds this week. Waiting for my new jib, but was pulling 4.9kts beating with my original doyle 100%, and missing a batten in my main. Very happy to have the hull wet again.

[DaveB]

Beating to windward at winds of around 6-8 knots the Mac can do close to 80% in calm 1ft. waves .
But most of us tend to just cruise on the light side .
Sailing at 52 Knots in apparent winds of 25 knots are not on our better side of breaking world record, woops 56 knots.
Dave
That's about right. Macs generally make about 50% of windspeed when sailed correctly. High performance monohulls can approach 100%, and multihulls and canted-keel boats can approach 200%.[/quote]

[DaveB]

I put on a new Hansen 105 jib back 3-4 years ago and installed a new main from Hyde sails from JudyB with loose foot and two top full battens and two reef points and can beat to windward 40 degrees in most conditions.
Lucky to do 50 degrees in old main and jib.
Dave

sounds like everyone had fair-winds this week. Waiting for my new jib, but was pulling 4.9kts beating with my original doyle 100%, and missing a batten in my main. Very happy to have the hull wet again.

[BOAT]

Captain Dave, did I hear that right?? You got 6.2 knots on a furled Genoa and NO MAINSAIL???? WOW, The M boat can really do that??

I had no Idea! That's INCREDIBLE!!

So the method is to lose the mainsail and only use the head sail, right?? MAN, I would not of thought of that - I guess I'm just used to much heavier boats. So your getting that kind of speed on a head sail - that's really great and I CAN'T WAIT to try that out!

[Phil M]

A normal 26M sailing at 8 knots, and tacking at 40 degrees? I wish.

[DaveB]

No, furled 105 jib, GPS reading and with current. was doing 7.8 knots with a strong est. current of 2.5 knots thru Shell Island and parts of Misserable mile.
So ya current had to do a lot extra on the ground speed.
Most of the 28nm leg that day was average 5.4 knots .
Doing that speed and probably most of it was no current is very good for the Mac. and with winds off the quarter 60-120 degrees it is easy to exceed hull speed in winds over 10 knots.
I have often exceeded 6 knots with no current in 15 knot winds on a broad reach.
Incredable is not not me and as you learn to sail you will find the benifits of the Mac.
Dave

Captain Dave, did I hear that right?? You got 6.2 knots on a furled Genoa and NO MAINSAIL???? WOW, The M boat can really do that??

I had no Idea! That's INCREDIBLE!!

So the method is to lose the mainsail and only use the head sail, right?? MAN, I would not of thought of that - I guess I'm just used to much heavier boats. So your getting that kind of speed on a head sail - that's really great and I CAN'T WAIT to try that out!

[BOAT]

I have often exceeded 6 knots with no current in 15 knot winds on a broad reach.

I'm just throwing a fit over here! In my mind a Broad Reach is RUNNING WITH THE WIND! And you got 6 knots?? Okay, I gotta try that - I had no idea.

No, furled 105 jib, GPS reading and with current. was doing 7.8 knots with a strong est. current of 2.5 knots

Just to be clear here - You got that 7.8 leg with a headsail ONLY? NO MAIN?? I just want to be clear on that. I have been afraid to run on the headsail alone in high winds because my boat does not have a backstay. Are you saying it's okay to run on the headsail alone in high winds instead of the mainsail alone? I must admit that would make reefing a LOT easier!

Okay Captain Dave! I think you have some sail handling to teach us about the MAC! What more have you done? What's best speed ?

[mastreb]

Making hull speed (6+) knots is not difficult in a Mac at any point of sail if there's sufficient wind (12+) knots. Getting over 7 knots under sail is an unusual condition that you can't really "make happen", it's more something that happens to you and you ride. Maintaining it takes not just sailing experience but specifically sailing your Mac experience. It's partial planing or running with a strong current, it doesn't last very long usually, just a few moments in my experience, and it's difficult to maintain because on any point except running the boat will strongly round-up in the conditions that are right for it.

But it makes for a great Chart-plotter screenshot, to be sure , and is something no keelboat is remotely capable of doing.

Matt

[BOAT]

Thanks Captain Matt - what about sailing in high winds under headsail only? Is that okay and normal for MAC?

[mastreb]

I wouldn't do it, but I don't think its unsafe necessarily. There are a few problems:

1) With the boat heeled over 30 degrees, the center of effort is out over the water, not the centerline of the boat, and there's substantial downforce being generated. The bow is narrower as well, with less beam to provide resistance to capsize, and the downforce will tend to bring the stern up. This will reduce rudder area, ventilate the motor if you need to do it, and reduces the resistance to rolling. So resistance to capsize is reduced.

2) The boat is not going to round-up nearly as easily under the headsail only in heavy winds, because the winds are pushing the headsail down, causing a lee-helm. Rounding up is the safety mechanism for a light boat, as it automatically reduces wind force when the boat turns to the wind. Under headsail only, the lee helm will cause further heeling. Combined with problem 1, this could get you all the way to the danger zone.

3) High winds also come with high seas, and with the center of effort all the way forward, the boat is going to plow into waves a lot. That's really going to slow you down, and plowing strongly rotates the boat to leeward.

You'll notice that all three of these effects destabilize the boat, and while no single one of them is sufficient to cause a problem, in combination, they may lead to a knockdown.

The cases I know of that involved turtling under sail only were both no ballast + headsail only. Now, it's still extremely rare, but I'd reserve headsail only for days with calm seas.

The right thing to do on heavy winds days is to hoist the main right out of the marina with a double reef. Then you can control all your sail area with the headsail's roller furler as you please. The main will be there to balance the boat and keep the center of effort well back, you won't have to reef it or mess with it much at all, and worse case scenario, you can furl the headsail and go home on your double-reefed main only (with just a patch of jib out for helm balance).

A double reefed main with just a patch of jib for helm balance will sail just fine up to Force 6 winds. Beyond that, Loose the mainsheet (leave the main up for boat stability), drop the motor, pick a swell, and manage your motorspeed to stay in the swell as best you can, picking a heading that doesn't have you broaching even if it gets you to the wrong shore.

Matt

[DaveB]

hey Boat,
Spent 3 years Sailing from Cape Cod thru S. America going thru 40 ft. seas in 12 day passage to St Thomas from Beaufort NC.
Spent 8 years prepareing for it, did it thru celetial navigation.
So you doubt me. Been sailing before you were born! So get yourself together and find out who you are?
Never second guess me and in future have something to say I can understand, and never doubt what I say.
Keep the Captain crap to yourself.
Dave

I have often exceeded 6 knots with no current in 15 knot winds on a broad reach.

I'm just throwing a fit over here! In my mind a Broad Reach is RUNNING WITH THE WIND! And you got 6 knots?? Okay, I gotta try that - I had no idea.

No, furled 105 jib, GPS reading and with current. was doing 7.8 knots with a strong est. current of 2.5 knots

Just to be clear here - You got that 7.8 leg with a headsail ONLY? NO MAIN?? I just want to be clear on that. I have been afraid to run on the headsail alone in high winds because my boat does not have a backstay. Are you saying it's okay to run on the headsail alone in high winds instead of the mainsail alone? I must admit that would make reefing a LOT easier!

Okay Captain Dave! I think you have some sail handling to teach us about the MAC! What more have you done? What's best speed ?