Water tank install? Inside water ballast tank

[trdprotruck]

That's a pretty intriguing system. My problem from the beginning with this thread was more of a safety issue. Anytime the ballast is partially filled due to the ladder's contents being consumed presents a safety hazard. I have experience with racing fuel cells in motorsports and they run into a similar problem where as fuel is consumed the slosh of fuel can throw off a vehicles balance and create a safety issue. This is why safety fuel cells are filled with baffles and foam to prevent fuel movement. The entire ballast system of the Mac is similar to a motorsports safety fuel cell in that if it is ever partially filled, a dangerous situation can occur.



In this picture you can see that any liquid in the bladder is held by the yellow foam to prevent any center of gravity changes.

-Randy

[Russ]

That's a pretty intriguing system. My problem from the beginning with this thread was more of a safety issue. Anytime the ballast is partially filled due to the ladder's contents being consumed presents a safety hazard.

Agreed. As you empty the bladder and it contracts, you must fill the ballast with equal amounts of sea water outside the bladder. Then no slosh because the ballast is always filled completely.

Other technical issues still exist, but keeping the ballast full shouldn't be difficult.

[Seapup]

You sailors are asking questions to what I already have installed in my Mac.26 X.
I installed a Ballast Plus System in my boat last spring. I have 35 gal. fuel bag in my water ballast tank. Could just as easy be water. As the fuel is used the water is replaced. The old hatch is removed, clean any shards and install the bladder. Re fibreglass the new hatch in place, run the lines, drill for fuel fill, I did mine in port/stern. This has been the best mod for me, don't have to get turned around for more fuel, can keep going for more adventure.
http://www.ballastplus.com

Can you post some pictures of the bladder, installation, and finished product?

[mastreb]

One could install a check-valve on the transom on the opposite side as the gate valve. This would keep the ballast tank full of water whenever the boat is in the water. The gate valve function remains the same, you open it to dump water when out of the water and otherwise just leave it closed.

You would not be able to run without ballast unless you covered the check-valve, however.

I actually think Macs should come this way for safety, because it inverts the safety proposition of forgetting about ballast. It makes the problem powering with ballast by accident, which is safe, and towing with ballast, which while unsafe for the boat and trailer is not a threat to life.

[trdprotruck]

One could install a check-valve on the transom on the opposite side as the gate valve. This would keep the ballast tank full of water whenever the boat is in the water. The gate valve function remains the same, you open it to dump water when out of the water and otherwise just leave it closed.

You would not be able to run without ballast unless you covered the check-valve, however.

I actually think Macs should come this way for safety, because it inverts the safety proposition of forgetting about ballast. It makes the problem powering with ballast by accident, which is safe, and towing with ballast, which while unsafe for the boat and trailer is not a threat to life.

I think this would work when the boat is at a stand still, but I don't see how water would fill the ballast tank while powering and fuel being consumed. A pump or water intake of some kind would be needed.

[BOAT]

mastreb is right - a check valve that only lets water flow IN to the ballast tank would be the best way to handle a bladder.

If the entire ballast tank was filled with a bladder full of fresh water the pressur from outside the boat would force water into whatever cavities are left open in the ballast tank. As the person in the boat consumes water the bladder gets smaller and water will flow into the ballast tank on it's own because of the pressure outside of the boat.

If the gate valve only lets water IN then it does not matter if your under power or moving (unless your really thirsty and drink all 750 gallons of water in the ballast tank while under way). Most people can't drink that much but I think there are a few salts out there that might be able to consume that much grog in less than six hours - I dunno - not me.

How long would it take to drink 700 gallons of water?

[trdprotruck]

mastreb is right - a check valve that only lets water flow IN to the ballast tank would be the best way to handle a bladder.

If the entire ballast tank was filled with a bladder full of fresh water the pressur from outside the boat would force water into whatever cavities are left open in the ballast tank. As the person in the boat consumes water the bladder gets smaller and water will flow into the ballast tank on it's own because of the pressure outside of the boat.

If the gate valve only lets water IN then it does not matter if your under power or moving (unless your really thirsty and drink all 750 gallons of water in the ballast tank while under way). Most people can't drink that much but I think there are a few salts out there that might be able to consume that much grog in less than six hours - I dunno - not me.

How long would it take to drink 700 gallons of water?

I think mastreb meant having a total of two valves. The standard gate valve on one side and a check valve on the opposite.

One could install a check-valve on the transom on the opposite side as the gate valve.

Regardless, there is no water pressure on the transom under power. This is why we power and open the ballast valve to empty it of water! The pressure at the gate may even be negative if there is a venturi effect under plane. Think about how paint guns work.

We don't need all 700 plus gallons to be gone to have a dangerous situation. The most dangerous situation is a partially filled ballast tanks due to sloshing.

[Ixneigh]

Beh. This is all getting very complicated. I dont think any extra valves are needed. open the back gate valve and connect the dock side hose to the fill line. fill until full. shut the gate valve. I dont use a lot of water under sail. when I get to a place, use water and the next day before hoisting sail, open gate valve for a few minutes.
so far as fuel down there, Im going to say...No. I dont trust the tank for level of duty. That site looks like it was just set up. maybe after a few years of proof of concept i would consider the fuel tank option. I would still do the water tank version though. The engineering is sound. I can build it to be strong. I can fill with the dinghy using lay flat plastic camping jerries that I store away easily after use.
Ix

[Dry Tortugas 2013]

You sailors are asking questions to what I already have installed in my Mac.26 X.
I installed a Ballast Plus System in my boat last spring. I have 35 gal. fuel bag in my water ballast tank. Could just as easy be water. As the fuel is used the water is replaced. The old hatch is removed, clean any shards and install the bladder. Re fibreglass the new hatch in place, run the lines, drill for fuel fill, I did mine in port/stern. This has been the best mod for me, don't have to get turned around for more fuel, can keep going for more adventure.
http://www.ballastplus.com

Is this real? They have not answered my email sent to them days ago. And did not answer phone when I called today. Got $ to spend and my boat is out of the water, good time to cut on a ballast tank. Curious about their hatch. Maybe their bladder is better than a imtra/nauta?


Update: My phone call was returned by Daniel of Ballast plus. A whole system will be around $1500 and Daniel said they are gonna sell components as well. Bladders made in USA and to fit our tank. Forgot to ask who's making the bladders. I already have a Nauta/imtra 27"x63" to fit a forward tank snug. I want a hatch. He described it as stainless with screw on lexan cover and can be fiber glassed on. He designed it. 10"x14" Suppose to be reasonably priced. Daniel said more details to be on his web site the end of this month. I have no relationship with these folks other than a potential customer.

[BOAT]

Gasoline is not as heavy as water. I would not use gasoline for ballast because it too light. I was only refering to using a bladder for FRESH WATER - not fuel.

I am not in need for more water and I will not mess with this but I was just saying that mastreb's theary that a bladder with a checkvalve will work is accurate.

It will indeed work.

[Ixneigh]

Going this rought without doing the structural glass work isn't probably that good of an idea. Note the potential for hard spots in the hull if not carefully done. I think the flexible tank should be tied by its corners to the stringers for support as the boat surges through the seas. The whole compartment should be carpeted to combat chafe. The fill and takeup lines and fittings need to be bulletproof. I do not think this is a "just cut a hole stuff in a tank and slap a cover back on" type of project.
when i do this i will likely do it using my own parts and system. ix

[Stevenhigbee]

My thought on this is filling the ballast tank with fresh water at the dock after sliding it off of the trailer. Then using that as a fresh water supply for washing only while beached at your destination. Then hiring a bucket gang to refill it before heading to your next destination. Or refill with sea water and head home. Or refill it with sea-water and go on to your next destination, having brackish water to bathe with at the next stop.

This could be done with no modification, just filling and pumping out through the vent hole.

A more complex modification might involve some plumbing to fill and remove water from the ballast tank. Maybe the tank could even be pressurized with a small compressor, to feed your plumbing.

[Sumner]

My thought on this is filling the ballast tank with fresh water at the dock after sliding it off of the trailer. Then using that as a fresh water supply for washing only while anchored or beached at your destination. Then hiring a bucket gang to refill it before heading to your next destination. Or refill with sea water and head home. Or refill it with sea-water and go on to your next destination, having brackish water to bathe with at the next stop.

This could be done with no modification, just filling and pumping out through the vent hole.

A more complex modification might involve some plumbing to fill and remove water from the ballast tank. Maybe the tank could even be pressurized with a small compressor, to feed your plumbing.

I can't see the above working very well. You fill the whole tank with fresh water and then start using it at some point. You don't want to use the S with a partially filled ballast tank so almost immediately you are going to have to add water to the tank and now you no longer have your clean/fresh water.

I'm setup for it but haven't done it but others have blown the water out of the ballast tank with a 12 volt pump used to fill air toys and mattresses. Most have done it to blow the tank before putting the boat on the trailer but it could possibly come in handy if you are aground. You open the ballast valve and blow into the vent tube and it forces the water out the bottom of the boat,

Sumner

============================
Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

[Stevenhigbee]

I'll spell it out a bit more carefully.
1.You put in at a full service marina where you fill the ballast tank with fresh water.
2. You sail to your destination,but do not draw from the ballast tank while under way.
3. You arrive at your destination, with 150 gallons of fresh water to use while there.
4. When you are ready to leave, you refill with salt water, sail home, and dump it.

[Russ]

I'll spell it out a bit more carefully.
1.You put in at a full service marina where you fill the ballast tank with fresh water.
2. You sail to your destination,but do not draw from the ballast tank while under way.
3. You arrive at your destination, with 150 gallons of fresh water to use while there.
4. When you are ready to leave, you refill with salt water, sail home, and dump it.

1) The inside of the ballast tank is nasty. During manufacturing, small fibers of glass are laying inside. Also, if the tank has ever been filled and left for a while, there is probably some nasty old growth in there that will be refreshed by adding water. Unless you flush it with lots of bleach and lots of water, that tank is probably nasty. Then you will want to put some kind of filter for small glass fibers.

2) Once you get to your destination and draw water out, the boat will instantly become unstable. Simply sitting on one side will cause the ballast to all flow to that side and the boat will be flopping around. That may be okay, but my destinations are usually anchorages with waves.

3) Refilling with sea water now fills your tank with micro organisms. See #1


This could work to some extent with a lot of work. You would need to flush the tank with chlorine or bleach at the end of each use.
I really don't see the big benefit over carrying 5 gal sun showers.

I have a raw water washdown pump with a hose that gets tossed over the side with a filter. We use this to hose off and then the sun shower for fresh water rinse.

If you do this, please report how it works for you. Also, if you do this, I would suggest filtering the water as you pump it out with one of these