Thoughts on Powering a 26X

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Ormonddude
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by Ormonddude »

Image Image
I just Harvested this Tohatsu 70hp and it is already mounted to my :macx: its Max Weight is 338lbs my 40hp Yamaha weighed 275lbs so I am not very concerned on weight. My thoughts on engines is this - I never like to buy a Max HP configuration in other words if Mercury makes a block and it used for a 100 - 125 - 150 hp Model I never want the 150 hp the Engine is tuned to Max tolerances and (this is just my opinion) More prone to break. It is constantly putting out the max hp per stroke on the block and crank ect. are rated at. So I very much Like the fact that This engine is a 70hp and not a 90 hp using the same engine components. Understand for the engine to hit the Higher Peak horsepower EVERY stroke has to be tuned to the blocks Max Capability.
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mastreb
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by mastreb »

Ormonddude wrote:Understand for the engine to hit the Higher Peak horsepower EVERY stroke has to be tuned to the blocks Max Capability.
Of course, that's only when you have the throttle wide open, which on these boats would be less than 10% of the engine's operating hours.

Because I lack any real data on the repair rates of various HP configurations, I've always felt the max HP models were the best value. More HP for the money spent (which is generally, but not always, what the $/HP shows).

I also agree with Catigale's statement on resale: It's clear to me from the sale prices I was seeing when I searched for a used boat (before deciding that resale value of M's was so high there was no point in buying used) the various engine configurations were not reflected in the used price at all. You're buying a hull when you buy used and getting a motor for free. People were selling with an 8hp outboard on the back for the same price as a 60hp, and I only reduced the value in my mind by about $2K for that difference.

Also, these boats are not like cars: People don't have to have one (so they're a pure luxury) and you aren't going to sell it in three years or less when the motor will actually retain value. By the time you decide to sell your MacGregor, that motor will be eight years old at a minimum with many hundreds of hour on it, and by then it will have fallen over its depreciation curve. The hull only depreciates (1) when you haul it off the lot (2) when you put a giant hole in it (3) when MacGregor releases a new model. Beyond that, the value is exceptionally stable. But the motors depreciate by the year and by the running hour.

Finally, in my opinion, there's no reason to buy anything between 10hp and 60hp for an M, and 10hp and 50hp for an X. The M's less flat hull needs a little more power to get up on a plane, and anything more than 10hp is wasted throttle and fuel for a small outboard, since you'll only get them up to 8 knots max with anything in that size range. The difference between an easy and very controlled 6.5 knots with the boards down and unstable plowing at 8 with them up isn't worth a dime IMHO.

The decision is pretty simple: If you want to power, get a 60, 70, or 90 depending on your pocketbook and preference. If you don't care about that, get a 9.9. I see no significant reason to consider anything else.

Finally, I thought I had no interest in powering and only bought the 60 because that's what the dealership I bought from offered pre-installed, and since I got a loan for the boat, the bank required a pre-installed motor. Then I discovered that sailing out to sea for three hours and returning in 15 minutes is pretty damned fun 8)
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Ormonddude
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by Ormonddude »

Of course, that's only when you have the throttle wide open, which on these boats would be less than 10% of the engine's operating hours.
Not from my understanding of engines lets use my 100hp - 150hp example at 1/4 throttle the 100 is putting out approx. 25hp the 150 is putting out 37.5hp on the same crank and block realize both Engines have the same RPM rating basically the 150 is IMHO is going to break first. I know its open to debate and there is weight consideration. This is just my thoughts on it. I never like the Max HP configuration.
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DaveB
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by DaveB »

I already new what prop to get. (13x10 triple cup Silver) and it does great on my Mac.X.
17.5 mph is best you are going to do with any 50hp big foot heavy loaded.
I was told Yamaha and Merc. 50 was same engine.
Just came back from 5 day cruise to keys and went thru the Northern cold front for 2 days. Winds 30 knots when it hit us and went down to 23 for 2 days.
Also tested the 2-40 watt solar panels on bimini to power my 63 quart frig. and never went below 12.45 volts tho we did power at times and watched movies on computer and recharged Cell Phones and other devices.
During the trip we were 50% or more under clouds, we used 5-6 gals fuel.
The Merc. plowed thru with ease.
Makeing a chose over past 3 years were a major impact about value,cost, performance and yes resale.
I plan on keeping the boat for next 5 years and well worth the price to repower and safety.
Dave

Herschel wrote:
I just repowred my 97 MacX with a 50 Bigfoot.
Out the door cost me $6500 with controls and cables from Bass Pro.( 50 bigfoot $5300)
Two questions: 1. The dealers with whom I have been speaking have been assuring me that they will go out on the water and get the right prop for the engine and the boat after the sale and install. Does Bass Pro offer that service, too? 2. I don't hear much about Yamaha on this board, but I have several folks bending my ear that way. I am getting the picture that the Mercury Bigfoot is gong to run about $1,000-1,500 less than a Yamaha. Did that figure into your decision to go with the Merc? :?
eddy
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by eddy »

I have a 9.9 yamaha on my x, and was thinking to move up to a 25 or 30 HP. I was planning to travel on a river with some current and assumed that some hp would compensate the current. I don't need to go fast.

Think i stick to my 9.9 then.
raycarlson
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by raycarlson »

No one would be able to convince you otherwise,but the last thing on the long list of what causes a moderen outboard to have a catastophic failure would be running the higher rated block WOT.these motors are so over built and under rated at 6000rpm there just starting to breathe.It really should not even be a consideration.I would worry much more about cooling system maintence.fuel injection problems,fuel quality,etc.. More outboards die from lack of use then anything else.
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mastreb
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by mastreb »

raycarlson wrote:No one would be able to convince you otherwise,but the last thing on the long list of what causes a moderen outboard to have a catastophic failure would be running the higher rated block WOT.these motors are so over built and under rated at 6000rpm there just starting to breathe.It really should not even be a consideration.I would worry much more about cooling system maintence.fuel injection problems,fuel quality,etc.. More outboards die from lack of use then anything else.
Ditto all of this, especially lack of use. The core issue with lack of use is that engine oils seep to the bottom of everything slowly over time. When you fire up an engine daily, there's oil everywhere, but when you light them up once a year, those first few cycles until the cylinders are well lubricated is equal to hundreds of routine starts. That's why you "fog" an engine with oil when you're going to leave it over the winter.
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DaveB
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by DaveB »

I just came back from a 5 day cruise in the Keys. No way would a 10 hp power me thru the 3-4 ft. chop waves I went thru . Best for the higher HP and amps for recharging batteries.
I like the get up and go at 17.5 mph on my 50hp Merc. when I need to run a tunderstorm or get back to dock/anchorage in a hurry.
If you wanted only a 10 hp motor than you should have went with the Hunter 23 with tiller and $ 500 Auto Pilot.
Dave
eddy wrote:I have a 9.9 yamaha on my x, and was thinking to move up to a 25 or 30 HP. I was planning to travel on a river with some current and assumed that some hp would compensate the current. I don't need to go fast.

Think i stick to my 9.9 then.
eddy
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by eddy »

Hi Dave,
I googled a lot, the mac filled the most of my needs.
One thing on my list was the current on the river i planed to sail/motor, when there is a long and heavy rain in Germany there is a strong current and i wanted a boat that can handle this.

Thats why i wanted to upgrade the boat to a 30hp motor, but if you guys say its a waste of money.....
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Ormonddude
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by Ormonddude »

If you read what Macgregor and BWYachts says you will see they very seldom install under a 50hp simply because you have a special hull that can plane like a power boat. I know this is the entire reason I got my :macx: and I am willing to bet at sometime you would really enjoy the added HP. What I am saying is do yourself a favor get at least 50hp and enjoy the amazing capability it is made for I am willing to bet you wont regret it just make sure you understand when to transition and pull the rudders and board up for speed travel. :wink:
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by Catigale »

There is a HP point, which varies with manufacturer, where certified installation is required. This adds to installed cost significantly, or both buyer and seller. More money to depreciate.... :|
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JohnCFI
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by JohnCFI »

Have to say the 50hp on my :macx: just manages to get it up on the plane, just, but by heck it then drinks fuel like there is no tomorrow!! I just wish I could find someone locally who fancies swapping the 50hp for a 20/25hp, which would chug me along economically. not really interested in planing or speed, its just uncomfortable. Another 'plus' would be allowing me to carry more 'stuff'.
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by mastreb »

Let me clarify a few things about the way these boats plane so you can make a more informed decision about whether you should considering powering with a low-range or high-range motor.

Macs move in three modes:

1) Displacement trawling. 0-7 knots. No significant bow wave or wake. The boat is displacing the water it moves through to the sides and does not take much power at all to move. This is the nominal sailing speed, i.e., the motor is producing about the same power as the sails can in moderate wind. Approximately 0.3 gallons of fuel per hour will be used, depending a little on the motor, and the Mac can make about 200 nm with 24 gallons of fuel in this mode.

The boat is very stable, and can be operated with all boards down for very good control (actually dagger up 66% is usually best when trawling--more creates unnecessary drag without improving handling.

Turning occurs by the boat pivoting on the center of lateral resistance (or plane), aka the daggerboard, with little to no heeling induced.

2) Plowing. 7-11 knots. Significant bow wave and wake occur. The bow wave creates a "hill" that the boat must "climb" in order to move forward, dramatically decreasing efficiency compared to either trawling or planing. The boat will use the same amount of fuel as planing or more, without the speed, due to this bow wave climbing. The boat will "pitch" dramatically as the bow wave moves forward and aft ahead of the CLR due to wave action and drag.

The boat oscillates between trawling and planing modes as it pitches (depending on the immediate position of the bow wave) and is very unstable in turns as it modulates between rotating on the CLR (outward roll) and rolling in planing mode (inward roll). All boards must be up or the boat will roll outside as the daggerboard prevents correct planing mode rolling inside. This is very dangerous and can capsize the boat at higher speeds.

Plowing is inefficient and has exceptionally poor handling characteristics because of the unstable shift between trawling and planing as the bow wave moves aft from the bow to the CLR (daggerboard trunk).

3) Planing. 12+ knots. Substantial bow wave and wake. The boat is planing over the bow wave as the bow wave has moved back to the CLR, and becomes much more efficient than when plowing. It ceases to oscillate. This is faster than the boat can ever reach under sail power in any circumstances. Approximately 9gph at WOT will be used, and the boat can make about 60nm with 24 gallons of fuel in this mode.

The boat is very stable, and must be operated with all boards up. Turning occurs by adjusting the direction of thrust behind the planing surface, which rotates the boat into the turn with dramatic heeling.

So the reason people are recommending either 15hp and below or 50hp and above is that intermediate horsepower motors will only get you into the plowing mode, which you should avoid anyway.

Dave B is right about overcoming currents: If you have substantial currents (>3 knots) you need to overcome, you will be limited to hull speed (7 knots) - current (3 knots) = 4 knots when going up-river. If you want better performance than that, you really ought to get at least a 50 hp motor so you can get up on a plane. Going up-river at 7 knots with a 4 knot current will take at least 40 hp and will be very unstable.
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JohnCFI
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by JohnCFI »

That is really interesting info, thank you.

So, effectivley, if all I am interested in is the 0-7 knots, with a little in reserve, what HP should I be looking at for good economy.

To sneak in another question, if I run at 3000-3500 RPM or more I get an overheat buzzer after a while, slow down to less that 2750 and it goes away, and will run happily all day. Any suggestions as to cause, someone locally suggested wrong oil type (Tohatsu 50HP don't know exactly but probably only a couple hundred hours up).
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Tomfoolery
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Re: Thoughts on Powering a 26X

Post by Tomfoolery »

JohnCFI wrote:That is really interesting info, thank you.
That was possibly the best summary of the subject I've seen.
JohnCFI wrote:So, effectivley, if all I am interested in is the 0-7 knots, with a little in reserve, what HP should I be looking at for good economy.
I would think a 9.9 would be enough for normal running, but if facing a strong wind, a 15 hp would probably make more sense for a boat that size, but I would defer to anyone who's actually used such a small motor on an :macx: .
JohnCFI wrote:To sneak in another question, if I run at 3000-3500 RPM or more I get an overheat buzzer after a while, slow down to less that 2750 and it goes away, and will run happily all day. Any suggestions as to cause, someone locally suggested wrong oil type (Tohatsu 50HP don't know exactly but probably only a couple hundred hours up).
What is the motor speed at WOT? It's possible you're overpropped, and lugging the engine at higher speeds. Or there are clogged passages. Or the impeller has lost a lobe or three. Or the thermostat is stuck in a partially open position. Lots of possibilities, but you need to start with the engine being propped correctly for the boat.
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