More thoughts on sailing

[Ixneigh]

So slogging around in hawks channel this afternoon in lumpy 4 footers pretending the motor was broken ( sailing to get somewhere) I had a few thoughts. What if I whacked three feet off the top of the mast (I have an M) and installed a full batten flattop main? I see some people do get the muscle head main but that's wayyyyy too much sail for the winds I usually have. It would be reefed all the time. I came out of snake creek and plowed out into hawks channel with everything set but could only make 4 k through that chop and the boat was over canvassed as it was. Later I picked up the board halfway again, took a reef, and looked for calmer nearshore water. All of that helped. I think a full board when your driving to weather and it's windy is counter productive. It seems to heel the boat more. Of course. It has more levarage. I try to let the rotating mast and hull form do some of the work in this case. Even short tacking through one of those mudflat passes in Florida bay I only used half.
I thought, like many before, to get the driving sail area lower. There has been discussion but has anyone actually tried a big flattop main on a shortened mast? Also consider, a flat top main offers less aero drag then a regular one. I can tell this boat is limited more by sails then hull shape. Iove the rotating mast. Just needs more power.

[1st Sail]

Brings up another interesting question. With a performance ($$$) set of sails how much additional speed could you achieve over the OEM sales? All point of sail?

[mastreb]

Step 1: Buy 3' shorter full batten main.
Step 2: Test and make sure you like it.
Step 3: Then cut the mast.

If you really want a shorter mast with more power, try a gaff-rig using a carbon gaff. I've been considering for some time doing my next mainsail with a sewn-in carbon gaff and dual halyards to properly tension it.

I've got a mainsail torn at the head and an already bent mast, so this affords me the perfect opportunity for some winter season experimentation.

My goal is to cut the mast both at the top by 5' (by going to a gaff rig) and the foot by 3', with the bottom 3' of the current mast (including the gooseneck but just below the mast gate) becoming a fixed tabernacle (permanently pinned in place so as not to affect rotation) and a second hinge right above the gooseneck. The hinge will have to be custom made, but it will be a piano hinge similar to the existing foot. It will be tensioned by the forestay as is the current mast hinge, including being pinned in place similarly to the current foot hinge. To be clear, the current foot and bottom 3' of mast will be unmodified--this is a cut in the mast above the gooseneck and below the mast gate with a hinge installed at the cut.

The mast will be lowered at the hinge just above the boom affixed to the gooseneck on the tabernacle, and the mast will fold down aft, remaining in place rather than being stepped to the pulpit. Boom is on, mainsheet is on the boom. Mast will overhang the stern by an additional 2 to 3 feet, but will be angled slightly downward rather than upward.

Red Pendant flying at the top of the mast now becomes a red flag indicating that the mast is beyond the legal overhang limit for a vehicle unless it has a red flag indicating overhang.

Now rigging will consist of:

1) eliminate the mast raising winch by having the admiral lift the mast above her head at the mast crutch.
2) I pull the furler from the tabernacle to the forestay chainplate.
3) Admiral comes around and pins the furler as I push it down from above.
4) Boat is rigged. Sail.

[seahouse]

Hey Ixneigh!

If you were to remove the top from the stock sail (for example), you would be decreasing its aspect ratio, and I thought that a lower aspect ratio is less, not more, aerodynamically efficient. (?)

You would also lose some pointing ability with a lower aspect ratio sail and be less efficient at upwind points of sail.

- Brian.

[mastreb]

Hey Ixneigh!

If you were to remove the top from the stock sail (for example), you would be decreasing its aspect ratio, and I thought that a lower aspect ratio is less, not more, aerodynamically efficient. (?)

You would also lose some pointing ability with a lower aspect ratio sail and be less efficient at upwind points of sail.

- Brian.

This is technically correct. It would be less aerodynamically efficient and you would lose some pointing ability--on a boat that could point. However, I believe (because I haven't yet tested it) that this pointing ability is already lost on the Mac to the lack of a full keel. It's my opinion that you'd see no substantial change in going to a fully battened shorter main or a gaff rig that had the same main sail area because the boat is already limited in its pointing ability. Loosing pointing ability for two different reasons are "concurrent" rather than additive in nature. This is why boats with gaffs, Cat boats, and other poor pointers can still sail at all.

[bscott]

Brings up another interesting question. With a performance ($$$) set of sails how much additional speed could you achieve over the OEM sales? All point of sail?

The OEM Doyle main and jib--on the X, not sure about the M--was cut with a deep draft of light weight dacron for light wind S. CAL conditions--cheap sails

The OEM M main was supposed to be cut flatter to work with the rotating mast (Hobie cut). When ordering a performance sail, it should be cut relatively flat---this will move the draft forward with a shallower draft which will produce more lift (forward drive) with less heeling = more speed.

Less heel = better pointing = more speed. Any Mac will sail better with high performance sails

Bob

[bscott]

Hey Ixneigh!

If you were to remove the top from the stock sail (for example), you would be decreasing its aspect ratio, and I thought that a lower aspect ratio is less, not more, aerodynamically efficient. (?)

You would also lose some pointing ability with a lower aspect ratio sail and be less efficient at upwind points of sail.

- Brian.

This is technically correct. It would be less aerodynamically efficient and you would lose some pointing ability--on a boat that could point. However, I believe (because I haven't yet tested it) that this pointing ability is already lost on the Mac to the lack of a full keel. It's my opinion that you'd see no substantial change in going to a fully battened shorter main or a gaff rig that had the same main sail area because the boat is already limited in its pointing ability. Loosing pointing ability for two different reasons are "concurrent" rather than additive in nature. This is why boats with gaffs, Cat boats, and other poor pointers can still sail at all.

If you want to improve pointing, then call Judy B and get her Hyde performance jib. Try sailing with a double reefed main before cutting your mast and modifying your main. You might like the extra control at 15 degs heel.

Bob

[Ixneigh]

A tall mast is better for pointing but the Apex of the Marconi style sail drags a vortex with it like the wingtip votices on a plane. How many pointy tipped wings are there. Not many.
A square or flat top reduces that drag. By a lot of my experiments with lug rigs is any indication.
A flat top would be as much as could be done without using a gaff. Maybe three feet max. Probably need a special top slide.

About pointing. Yes, all those old style rigs, gaff lug ect pointed. They point fine. Not quite as good as a tall sail attatched to a deep keel. But well enough. I don't like the gaff due to the two halyards and the critical adjustments needed. A poorly set gaff rig is little better then a tarp.
Pointing in the M a problematic. The boat needs way on her for those thin foils to work. In flat water it's easy to get this speed without pressing the boat. In lumpy conditions you need as much sail as she can stand to punch through. As soon as she heels past 20 degrees it's my feeling the full board is a hindrance. It seems to trip the boat. So your not going to point well in these conditions. You will have to foot off else your just going nowhere.

The easiest thing is to avoid lumpy water and since I like to sail I'm always thinking about what ifs.
One caveat: these boats do point really well in flat waters. With a true gaff you would lose some of that.

[lightspeed]

I had my mast leaned back.It was slow and would not point into the wind,had excessive weather-helm where it would just spin to head downwind if boat speed became slow.Also I made my own rudders in the past from wood after breaking the originals by grounding in shallow water.I made them shorter than the originals and learned that was very bad,since they had alot less bite during heeling and also that created boat spin...

I've since installed new rudders and adjusted the mast to be straight-up!

Last weekend we had big waves and 20mph gusts and 15mph wind here on Lake Wallenpaupack in Pennsylvania.What a difference it made!The boat sailed like it was on rails! I was running mainsail alone and passed 90% of the other sailboats on the lake,there were at least 15..! As we passed a 22foot sailboat asif it were standing still,they asked if we had our motor running!!LOL..just great. This was the first time I saw the real performance of my boat a 2006 Macgregor26m which I bought new. In some of the winds the boat ran like a racehorse,jumping forward in reaction to each gust of wind..,while also going off the waves tipping forward and back..the steering was perfect and alot faster than the old set-up! I even noticed,it seemed like the other boats were following me all day,maybe seeing the big wind I was getting or trying to pass me maybe?? The boats I recognized were a few catalina 25's and 22's.

The second day out the winds were calmer 8-10mph.Ran main and jib.Actually sailed close-hauled almost straight into the wind heeled all the way over.Sailed straight into the bay,against the wind to anchor with the other boats and dropped anchor,didn't even need to use the motor in crowded anchorage..boat pointed in any direction I wanted.I had traveler in center and and jib controls set almost in center where the tell-tales all correct streaming back,set-up for medium wind.

I learned so much,can't wait to go sailing again with this new set-up! Sadly it probably won't be until spring,getting kinda cold here,had to wear warm coat and winter hat,brrr!

[robbarnes1965]

If there is even one other sailboat on the water, it's a race

[vizwhiz]

Sadly it probably won't be until spring,getting kinda cold here,had to wear warm coat and winter hat,brrr!

Yeah, it's starting to cool off again down here...I think 86 was the high yesterday and the air-conditioning shut off for a little while last night!

[Russ]

If there is even one other sailboat on the water, it's a race

And we Mac X/M owners always lose.

[robbarnes1965]

If there is even one other sailboat on the water, it's a race

And we Mac X/M owners always lose.

Not always Russ. We do generally have the slower boats but not every one can read the puffs and trim the sails correctly. On a very rare occasion I have beaten some people out there. It is rare though. I am still new to racing but I have noticed this year that the fleet racers always have a few guys out there who despite having the same measured boat as everyone else seem to win whether they have their usual experienced crew or just the admiral aboard. I think the fact that we never really try to race our Macs has a lot to do with not being fast.

[jbousquin]

One caveat: these boats do point really well in flat waters. With a true gaff you would lose some of that.

Ixneigh, I'm really glad you made this distinction. I've asked people here how high they can point in an attempt to determine if what I'm seeing on my M is accurate. I sail on the California Delta, so very protected, flat water, and I feel like my M points extremely well. It points better, almost -- or at least as well as -- the Cal 39 I grew up sailing, although that boat was the shallow draft version and not a full keel, so perhaps not an extreme comparison.

I've thought that perhaps my Windex was being unduly influenced by apparent wind in some cases, but I had someone else sailing my boat this weekend, and she also commented on how close my boat was seeming to sail to the wind. I'm talking regularly sailing 20 to 25 degrees off the wind. I've posted this before, and have been laughed off the forum for it! But I'm actually being serious -- I can't figure it out, but sometimes, my Windex will be pointing upwards of 20 to 15 degrees, and I'm still making way.

If anyone has insight into either a) what I'm seeing/not seeing that would suggest the Windex is only tracking apparent and not real wind, and I'm actually not as close as I think or b) other tales of sailing closer to the wind than the Mac is known for, I'd love to hear it. Thanks, Joe

[bscott]

I gave up using a Windex many years go when an Osprey decided to perch on it. I use Davis shroud tell tails about 8' up the shrouds from my cabin top. I see 20-25 apparent on the windward TT provide all my 110 jib and main tell tails are streaming back and we do not exceed 15 heel. All bets are off heeling beyond 20.

Mast rake, halyard and sheet tension, CB/DB position, sail quality, etc, etc will also determine your pointing. None of this really matters unless you are running the markers--sailing off the wind is alot more fun and faster too

Bob