Extreme heeling in a water ballasted(?) boat

[mastreb]

We were out on San Diego bay today coming out of the marina and just about to raise sails when we saw a boat go WAY over, in the most extreme heel I've ever seen. Without exaggeration, this heel looked to be beyond 75 degrees. The boat rounded up fast and hard. We could see the rudder completely out of the water, and there was clearly no keel so I assume it was water ballasted. We didn't see a dagger-board or centerboard either, but the bottom was painted black so we might have missed it. The aboveboard was painted tan, and it appeared to have a red stripe above the rub-rail. Looked to have been 22 feet long or so, but I couldn't identify the make.

Everybody on my boat gasped, and we fell in behind it expecting to render aid.

After rounding up (it looked like it was spinning on its gunnels), it pointed to the wind and came up, but the skipper turned it back to a beam reach and again it went directly over (10 knot winds, gusting to 15), this time even farther, and again rounded up. The mainsail was literally no more than four feet off the water on this second round up.

This behavior continued a few more times until the helmsman got onto a broad reach, at which point the boat stayed a bit more upright (by which I mean a 60 degree heel). He had the sails full up (we were running main and just a patch of Genoa for balance) and sheeted in as tight as possible, spilling no wind and frankly doing nothing at all but steering the boat. The boat had a very modern fully battened large roach flathead main similar to a KH Musclehead, and was running a 110% hank-on jib fully up and sheeted tight, as if for pointing, but this was a beam reach.

There were at least four people in the cockpit, and I'm astonished nobody went overboard. As scary as it was to watch, it was also somewhat interesting to see a boat actually go nearly to a knockdown and come back up. Knowing the physics is quite a bit different from seeing the physics in action.

[tewharaunz]

Maybe they didn't know it was supposed to have water ballast... I've seen a Mac do some pretty scary heeling when they motored to the start line and forgot to fill the ballast tanks...

[Steve K]

Some of those guys in San Diego bay are just practicing. I've seen them do stuff like this in teaching situations.
Also could've been newbies, but the way you describe it, it seems purposeful for some reason to me.

Of course I've done the same thing before... spun around a couple times, with the spreader tip in the water. But I was single handing.
To make a long story short.... jib sheet came loose and thinking my tiller tamer was tight enough, I went up to re- cleat the sheet, tiller went over all the way, I fell on my a#% and me and the boat did the 85 degree heel and spin Actually got the leech of the main a little wet. Got hold of the tiller, but the rudder doesn't work unless it is actually in the water The boat popped back up, boom came across and almost started this dance all over again in the other direction. By this time I was on my knees in the cockpit floor, pulled on the tiller with one hand and let go the mainsheet with the other...... finally regained control (all this happened in a manner of a few seconds). Winds were 15 to 25, but I'd guess the puff that started this was closer to 40 something. Gees, my back hurts

I have since fixed the cleat that started this chain of events.

This is why it always amazes me when I read a story about someone capsizing one of these boats.
How can that even happen

Best Breezes
Steve K.
Mac 26D "Three Sheets"

[raycarlson]

sounds like a familarization class being taught.everyone who owns a water ballast boat should intentionally try to knock their boat over just to get to know what all transpires in the process.if everyone is prepared there is no danger and is actually quite fun.

[Tomfoolery]

Which begs the question, what is the angle of vanishing stability for an or ? I've seen calculations that work out to around 130 degrees, and postings on innerweb forums that say it's more like 110 degrees in practice. Just curious how far you can knock it over before it won't come up, assuming no extra equipment that puts the CG unusually high.

[dlandersson]

I'll leave the fun to you.

sounds like a familarization class being taught.everyone who owns a water ballast boat should intentionally try to knock their boat over just to get to know what all transpires in the process.if everyone is prepared there is no danger and is actually quite fun.

[robbarnes1965]

and make sure the beer in the cooler are cans, not bottles when you do the training

[mastreb]

I did wonder if they weren't doing it on purpose for some reason, because it kept happening. It was a very busy day on the water and they were right in the middle of a choke point in the bay, but who knows?

My calculations put the point of vanishing stability on a Mac at 110 degrees.

[raycarlson]

i can only speak for an M, but what ive experienced is that to get the mast to go past the 95-100% point you would have to have the additional force of some large waves,kinda like rolling off of a hill to actually get your mast under water.i could only get my mast to momentarily smack the water for a fraction of a second before popping right back up and rounding up.this was on a fresh water lake only small wave action,maybe 1 foot waves with whitecaps off the top.i had companionway hatch in but clearly there was no chance of water entering the cabin as the companionway was well above water level when over on its side, I would only worry about a knock down in heavy seas on an M, in which case I would not have any sail up and would have the Nissan up and running.I do have an additional 300-350 pounds of lead and fiberglass at and below the waterline on my M due to the mods I have done to all the under seat compartments.

[Ixneigh]

I once anchored the boat in the shallows fore and aft with no ballast. I took the jib halliard and tried to pull her over. I could not. I have added 340 pounds of lead as low in the hull as I could, but it is not as effective as it would be if it were at the VERY bottom. I take a hit in motor speed but it allows me to carry more sail longer. Since I mostly sail or power at non planing speeds it's a trade off I was willing to make. Eventually I want to add several layers of biax to the very bottom of the boat. The hull is too thin for my liking under the back berth.
This should also add righting moment.
Ixneigh

[raycarlson]

i agree about hull thickness.on an M you'll be lucky to find more then 3/8" thickness anywhere on the hull but corners or joints.between the ballast tank and to above waterline i added six layers of 24oz mat to increase hull skin to 3/4" thickness and added #9 lead shot between layers down low at the ballast tank to hull junction,plus white gelcoated all of the interior of the hull skin in all compartments,it took over 50yards of 60" matt and 20 gallons of resin and gelcoat but was worth it.

[Phil M]

i agree about hull thickness.on an M you'll be lucky to find more then 3/8" thickness anywhere on the hull but corners or joints.between the ballast tank and to above waterline i added six layers of 24oz mat to increase hull skin to 3/4" thickness and added #9 lead shot between layers down low at the ballast tank to hull junction,plus white gelcoated all of the interior of the hull skin in all compartments,it took over 50yards of 60" matt and 20 gallons of resin and gelcoat but was worth it.

Did you post that mod?

[Highlander]

The dealer I bought my boat from once had an on display with a 3/4" hole drilled through the hull just below the water line near where the mast mounts on the cabin & the hull was 3/4 " thick in that perticular area but apon inspection of my boat when I bought it new in 08 a few yrs later I do not think the hull is as thick as it was in previous yrs I know I can see light shining though the hull under the dinnette & galley area's on a really bright day or @ night if u hold a light under the hull in these area's ! that really surprized me ! but have had no hull issues even with a heavily laden boat on the water or while trling

J

[ROAD Soldier]

The dealer I bought my boat from once had an on display with a 3/4" hole drilled through the hull just below the water line near where the mast mounts on the cabin & the hull was 3/4 " thick in that perticular area but apon inspection of my boat when I bought it new in 08 a few yrs later I do not think the hull is as thick as it was in previous yrs I know I can see light shining though the hull under the dinnette & galley area's on a really bright day or @ night if u hold a light under the hull in these area's ! that really surprized me ! but have had no hull issues even with a heavily laden boat on the water or while trling

J

Thats that new secret fishing mod so you see the fish hidding under your boat .

[raycarlson]

not even on your transom where there is a piece of half inch plywood for motor mounting will you find 3/4" of fiberglass unless you count the 1/2" of plywood.