New Sails which Brand what Experience?

[c130king]

For casual sailors what are the pros/cons of the different batten configs?

Thanks
Jim

[Judy B]

Great idea on the spreadsheet.

It would also help (me at least) to know "how to tell if your sails are shot."

My X is an 02 with original main. The 150 Doyle genoa I bought last year that had been used < 5 times, so I know it's in good shape.

Since my X is the only Mac I've sailed on, I don't know how to tell if a new main would improve my speed, or by how much.

I'm going to email Judy and see if I can get a consult at Havasu....................

THKS.
ron

Hi Ron,

I'd be happy to take a look at your sails at Havasu, and to go out sailing on your X and see how well we can trim them into a nice shape.

There are two parts to a sail being "shot" or not.

Here are some thoughts on how to evaluate sails, off the top of my head. I apologize in advance if it's not perfectly well organized, and maybe even a little less than perfectly explained (hope I don't make some really embarassing mistake by cutting and pasting). I'm a lousy proof reader, so go easy on me, guys... please?

First - are the cloth and is the stitching still strong enough to resist tearing? UV exposure weakens dacron polyester thread and sailcloth fast. That's an easy thing to test. If you can break the thread with your fingernail or a sharpened pencil lead, it's not safe to use that sail. Next you try to rip the cloth: Put a needle though the cloth and try to rip is sideways. Good cloth won't rip. Grab the cloth with both hands and vigorously try to rip it; good cloth won't rip Honestly.

Secondly -- how it the shape? Bad shape means you heel more in the gusts and can't point high. A boat that's heeling more than 15 wants to round up, and
when you counteract it with the rudder, you slow the boat down and you can't point as high as you're pointing, you start slipping sideways.

Does it have a nice foil shape or does it hang like bed sheet being held at the corners?
How deep is the draft camber and where is it located when you hold the sail by the corners on land? The camber should be 8-12% of the cord and when unloaded should be located at 40-48% of the cord. (Maybe more draft for heavy cruisers).
Is the bolt rope shrunken so that the sail is baggy along the luff? (not good)
are the leech edges scalloped between the battens? (not great)
Is there a wrinkle running from the front of the top batten all the way down the sail to the foot that you can't trim out, and that wasn't there when the sail was new? (not good)
Under sail:
Where is the deepest part of the draft when sails are powered up? Does the draft move aft with every gust, even when there's enough tension on the luff? An unstable draft moves aft in the gusts and you heel excessivly. Not good.
Can you trim it to a nice shape every time you go out, or do you have to change your settings every time (that's not good, that means the cloth has no "elastic memory" - it literally changes shape permamently every time you pull a string)

It takes some experience to evaluate shape, especially since you need to know what a new sail, properly shaped for the particular wind and sea conditions should look like. If anybody goes to Havasu, I'd be happy to demonstrate the evaluation on land, comparing a blown out sail with a new one. And I can post some pictures showing what a good sail shape looks like vs a bad one.

(Below) Here's a before and after pic of an old mainsail on a 25 footer sailboat and a new one, (in very light wind or a near calm.)



(below) Here's a pic of a nice shape on a mainsail in fairly high winds, with the draft analysis:



Regards
Judy B

[Judy B]

For casual sailors what are the pros/cons of the different batten configs?

Thanks
Jim

A real quick answer:

Advantages of full battens: They add longevity to the sail, by supporting the sailcloth and distributing some of the strains. They reduce flogging when you motorsail; flogging ages a sail really fast; it fatigues the horizontal threads in the cloth to the point of breaking. In really light air, they hold the shape and produce power even in the lightest breeze. Full battens add great stability to the shape; they "lock in" the draft position and depth. These are all important advantages.

disadvantages of full battens:
- a mainsail with all full battens is heavy. It's harder to hoist.
- Full battens push the luff slides against the mast, which can make it harder to hoist or lower the mainsail.
- Full battens rub up against the shrouds when sailing downwind.
- In strong winds, a fully battened mainsail cannot be luffed, it will be powered up even when you release the mainsheet. The boat won't stop. This can be a big disadvantage. It's harder to depower a fully battened mainsail than a "soft" mainsail.
- With full battens, you lose a lot of your ability to adjust the draft position via sail trim controls. With full battens, the stiffness of the battens and the tension on the battens determine where the draft is located; you have adjust things for the wind strength or "just live with it set in the middle".

1 Full, 3 partial Battens:
Adding one full batten at the top adds durability and shape to the top of the sail. It's hard to affect the shape at the top of the sail, so a full batten up there is a nice plus, in terms of shape AND durability. It still leaves the skipper lots freedom to adjust the draft depth in the bottom 3/4 of the sail,. One full batten up at the top doesn't make it noticably harder to hoist the sail, and you should still be able to put in a reef without having to point the bow into the wind. Helps to prevent a wrinkle in the sailcloth at the front of the upper battens.

2+2
With two full battens, you get the benefit of reduced flogging when motor sailing, with improved control of the draft at the top of the sail, but still can depower the bottom half if you're overpowered. It adds some weight to the sail. and it might take a little more effort to hoist or lower the sail, since the second batten adds more "thrust" on the luff slide, possibly producing friction at the mast. The second full batten may (or may not) hit the shrouds when you're trying to reef when sailing on a deep reach. Helps to prevent a wrinkle in the sailcloth at the front of the upper battens.

Fully Battened:
Pros: Great longevity. Lots of power in light breezes. Resists flogging when motorsailing. No stretching/wrinkling at the front of the batten pockets.
Cons: Can't control draft depth; therefore can't depower the sail. Can't luff the mainsail; therefore you might find you can't "stop" the boat. Weighs a lot. The battens thrust the slides against the mast; they can bind unless you use an expensive, low friction batten-car system. The only way to adjust the draft depth and position is to retension the battens before you leave the dock. If you want to change the draft position, you have to use soft battens in low winds, stiffer battens in high winds.

For the motorsailors, I'd recommend one or two full battens at the top. I don't like the fact that a luffing mainsail with 4 full battens bangs around wildly; especially for less-than-expert sailors. A fully battened sail that's being luffed in high winds bangs around hard, and can break stuff and hurt the crew.

Personally, I'm a big fan of one or two battens at the top, but not 4 full battens. I like to be in control of the shape of the sail. And I really don't like the idea that you fully battened mainsail doesn't luff quietly. If any of you are windsurfers, you'll really understand how out of control a fully battened sail can be even when it's luffing. Dangerously so.

Super fast boats, like catamarans, that are always close hauled and pointing (the wind is always in front of the beam because they're so fast) benefit greatly from fully battened sails because they don't need to change the shape of their sails very much. Racers who adjust the batten tension or switch to stiffer or softer battens get a real benefit by having full battens. Charter owners like them because the sails last longer even when the customers abuse the crap out of the sails. Casual sailors who NEVER sail in high winds and are willing to put up a sail that's harder to hoist (or are willing to pay extra for low friction fancy batten cars instead of slides) get a little benefit from full battens.

One disdvantage of fully battened mainsails is that they always look good, even when the shape isn't quite right for the sea/wind conditions. That makes it really hard for a less-than-expert sailor to learn how to adjust the shape for more or less power, more or less heeling, and acceleration vs pointing high.

I want to qualify what I've just written by saying this is off the top of my head, a first draft, covering some of the biggest points. Looking back on it, I admit it's not a quick answer, but I tried to stick to the main points as they pertain to cruisers, not racers.

Hope this clarifies some of the questions out there. I swear , I'm not gonna answer any more questions for 24 hours -- I gotta catch up on my other customers!

Fair winds,
Judy B

[captronr]

Thanks Judy,

Now get back to those paying customers

Ron

[bscott]

I agree with Judy about over powering the full batten main in gusts as both Mac models heel quickly and fast traveler trimming is required but rarely practiced. Our highly swept back spreaders present another problem for full battens. I've been sailing my masted for over 5 years in very gusty conditions with spreaders cut back 5.5" with the full top batten only with very good down wind results with no rigging issues. Since I trim by the inch with my winch I am always looking for the best sail shape for the conditions and agree again with Judy that the top only full batten main is the most flexible and easier to control main.
I think it important to tell your sail loft that the has a rotating mast and to cut your draft flatter, same as a Hobie cut, otherwise a traditional draft will act like it is too deep because of the redirected wind over the rotated mast.

Thanks Judy for your excellent explanation(s).

Bob

[c130king]

Judy,

Thanks. Great answer.

Appreciate all your support to this board.

Cheers,
Jim

[vkmaynard]

Judy,
You caught my interest and purchaseing a Main Sail for my Mac.X.
Will call you on info I need to order.
Dave

Ok I am envious now. What did you order? Please let us know how the sail(s) look.

Thanks,

Victor

[Catigale]

I'm going with white...

[Judy B]

Here's some guidance on the two different dacrons I'm offering on the mainsails.

7 oz High Mass Cruising Dacron by Challenge Sailcloth - Tough enough to Motorsail

If you motor sail alot, then the 7 oz High Mass Woven Cruise dacron is for you. This cloth is tough enough to resist the wear and tear of motor sailing. Motor sailing flogs the sails, and flogging ages them really fast. High Mass Weave is designed for the ultimate in durable cruising sails. The High Mass yarns provide better flogging resistance, tear resistance, abrasion resistance and breaking strength than any other quality weave available. Challenge designed this cloth for Charter boats, and it's built tough and durable. The price and value to you, the customer, is outstanding.

In practical terms, the "high mass" means it weighs about 2.5 pounds more than the 6 oz mainsail I'm also offering. I don't think that's a big deal unless you race. If you were a racer, having 2.5 extra pounds aloft would be a bad thing, you'd need an extra 10 pounds of "rail meat" (human ballast) to eliminate the extra heeling from the extra weight aloft. To a racer, extra weight means less speed. But for a motorsailing Mac26x or M, I think the trade off is more than worth it.

The 7 oz High Mass Dacron is a super cruising sail. It's a premium cruising cloth designed to hold its shape for many many years, with extra strong horizontal yarns to withstand motorsailing.

6 oz High Modulus Dacron by Challenge Sailcloth. - A Performance Edge for just a few dollars more.

High Modulus Dacron (HMD) means its woven with very low stretch yarns. If you like to pull the strings to shape your sail, this sail is for you. If you "trim by the inch", the HMD this sail will be more responsive to adjustments than the 7 oz High Mass . The High Modulus sail will hold it's shape exceeding well. This is a high performance dacron -- a combination that optimizes sail shape first, but still is very durable and suitable for cruising.

Fair winds,
Judy B

Below: Old stretched out sail on top, and a new sail at bottom. Notice the difference in the draft depth and position between the two, even in what is obviously little or no wind.

The bottom sail has a much better "wing" shape. Notice the beautiful flatness of the back half of the sail. That's important for reducing drag and heeling, especially in the gusts. Also, the bottom sail has two full battens at the top, and 2 partial (leech) battens at the bottom; the bottom battens are tapered and are much longer than the top sail, supporting the flat leech shape.

[Judy B]

Judy,
You caught my interest and purchaseing a Main Sail for my Mac.X.
Will call you on info I need to order.
Dave

Ok I am envious now. What did you order? Please let us know how the sail(s) look.

Thanks,

Victor

Dave ordered a 2+2 mainsail.

It should look a lot like the new Olsen 25 mainsail in the bottom of this picture. Very cool shape.





Mac 26M Mainsails - Click to enlarge


Mac 26X Mainsails - Click to enlarge

[vkmaynard]

Judy,
You caught my interest and purchaseing a Main Sail for my Mac.X.
Will call you on info I need to order.
Dave

How did the new sail work? Quality?

No input from other vendors.

Victor

[arknoah]

Mac 26M Mainsails - Click to enlarge


Mac 26X Mainsails - Click to enlarge
[/quote]

Do you have a similar chart for a Macgregor 25 sailboat? ... please, please, please, please

[mastreb]

Hi Judy,

I'm currently using the Doyle OEM mainsail, but have purchased (used) Mike Inmon's roller furling main system without a sail. The roller furler requires operating a loose-footed sail, and I'd considered modifying the OEM, but it's not a great mainsail anyway and so I think I ought to just get a new one.

I'd like your advise on a mainsail for the following conditions:

1) Generally light to moderate air and day sailing (San Diego Bay, 5..10 knots winds, usually 5). I'm typically limited to 4 knots in the bay with the combination of wind, skill, and sail that I have, which is a bit frustrating.
2) Loose footed for a boom roller furler.
3) Long lasting.
4) Easy to handle and keeps good shape with less operator input.
5) Hoisting is no problem (I can put 260 lbs. of hoisting force on the mainsail).

Do you make a sail for the roller reefer already?

Matt