Would You Buy Old or Buy New?

[davidbourne]

Hi there,

1st off, this forum is fantastic. Many thanks for all of the Mac information. I've never even *seen* a Mac, but thanks to your pics, mods, stories and ideas, I'm completely sold on getting one!

But what do I get? Should I wait until I can afford the "MacDaddy Mac" or get a used X to learn on sooner? Maybe I could sell it in a few years to a friend, upgrade to a new M and we could do Mac Family Adventures together.

I know I want a 90HP for skiing with kids and heavy loads. I want the safest trailer I can get, and I want to keep the skeptical Mrs. Admiral happy. It seems that an older model might already be fitted out; will I have problems putting a 90hp on a new Mac? I think I would lose the hull warranty. Will dealers or new outboard shops even install this "overpowered" 90hp engine?

What would you do if you had to do it again?

All the best,

David

PS, I searched but could not find a similar thread from months ago.

[mastreb]

These are my very humble opinions, so take them for what they're worth.

Aside from the money, I don't think there's any issue with buying a used X or M. Because a lot of these boats live on trailers, they don't really age much, and all fiberglass boats don't age quickly anyway. You're likely to see some fading of the bandit stripes and that's about it on an older boat. As long as the hull is sound and looks like it's in good condition, every other problem you might encounter is going to me minor and inexpensive to fix. Consider that you could replace the mast, all the rigging, and every other fitting on the boat for under $3K using new parts if you had to, and you can replace the sails for under $1500.

The centerboards on the X are a more complex system than the daggerboards on an M, so you'll want to inspect the centerboard trunk. There's literally nothing that can go wrong with the daggerboard on an M that can cause a problem that can't be solved by replacing the board and the rope it hangs from.

The general consensus is that the is a better powerboat because it has a flatter hull, and the is a better sail boat because of it's deeper V and possibly because of its rotating mast. So I would think the question of which hull to get comes down to whether you want better performance under power or sail. The X gets up higher on a plane and appears to me to be less wet than the M (which is very wet in the cockpit under wide-open-throttle).

I'm happy with my ETEC-60, but it isn't going to pull a water skier. If you're convinced you want to do that, I'd put either an ETEC-90 on it or the Suzuki-90. The ETEC is smaller and lighter because it's two stroke.

Definitely get a Garmin chartplotter IMHO--any of them will do. The 421s is the cheapest at under $500 and gives you all the functionality, just with a small screen. It's what I have and I really like it. You can get a $50 cable that will allow you to connect it to the engine data from a modern outboard such as fuel consumption and will give you all the alarms such as low oil, etc.

Get the stern rail seats for your model. This is a must-have IMHO. They open up the cockpit a lot and they put human ballast where you need it to keep the heel where you want it, in the 20 degree range.

Get the CDI roller furler with the 150 genoa unless you already have a preference for a hank-on 110 jib because you're a really good sailor and you know the conditions in your area. The 150 roller furler genoa is very flexible for a wide variety of conditions and easy to use.

I put a boomkicker on mine, and I like it. Opinions vary there so you'll want to read about them.

And of course, if you get an M, the white hulls are faster than the blue

[C Striker]

I would have got a white hull. Scratches on the blue hull show up as white underneath
I didn't pay for the blue hull option at least. I thought it was a mistake at first, but he knew exactly what he was doing.

They are only noticable up close, and can be fixed with a touch up pen. The blue really pops and the extra speed comes in handy when out of beers though.

Erik

[dlandersson]

We can fix your "never actually seen a Mac" - what is your location? I have found that most right-thinking Mac owners live on or near the great lakes.

Hi there,

1st off, this forum is fantastic. Many thanks for all of the Mac information. I've never even *seen* a Mac, but thanks to your pics, mods, stories and ideas, I'm completely sold on getting one!

But what do I get? Should I wait until I can afford the "MacDaddy Mac" or get a used X to learn on sooner? Maybe I could sell it in a few years to a friend, upgrade to a new M and we could do Mac Family Adventures together.

I know I want a 90HP for skiing with kids and heavy loads. I want the safest trailer I can get, and I want to keep the skeptical Mrs. Admiral happy. It seems that an older model might already be fitted out; will I have problems putting a 90hp on a new Mac? I think I would lose the hull warranty. Will dealers or new outboard shops even install this "overpowered" 90hp engine?

What would you do if you had to do it again?

All the best,

David

PS, I searched but could not find a similar thread from months ago.

[ROAD Soldier]

One thing about this site you will figure out very quickly if you are the experimental, daring, and not easily put onto a bandwagon type person like me is that there is a lot of BS that goes on here. Some of it like mine is for humor others is because they actually believe their BS especially when it comes to mods they have never performed.

Don't listen to the so called self proclaimed engineer type individuals that think they know what particular mod will do to the Mac that they haven't done. Also be very careful about what people express by what they read in a book about sailing, particularly when they try to apply it to what a Mac cant do.

One primary example of this is the HP discussion. Difference between Suzuki 90HP and ETEC 90HP is 20lbs. Difference between Honda 50HP and a Suzuki 140Hp is 175lbs. What difference does this make? Not a darn thing. I weigh 230 something so if I sit in your cockpit my Center of Effort is higher than any freak-en motor you are going to put on a Mac.

Bottom line if you want to know what any particular mod does to any aspect in the performance of a Mac read only what people who have actually done it have to say. This also applies to trips and bodies of water take the advice from people who have done it or been there.

The more excuses you listen to not fulfill a dream, the more likely it will stay a dream.

[Divecoz]

IMHO....
Its all about Budget..
If your budget is under $35K you really need to look at used.. For what you can get used ... an X around $16K an M around $20+K you will need to spend $25=$35K for New..
Used .....most often will find you with a 50 HP. My Mercury 50HP Big Foot ( 14x10 prop) 4 stroke will do WOT in the mid to upper teens.. pretty stripped down.. Its all about needs and desires and $$$$$$ an older X will most likely come with a Tohatsu 50 HP.. Some guys here claim to love them..Maybe they do..... maybe they are just stuck with them..
No matter your life style..Slip or Trailer? You'll be docking this boat twice every time you use it.. My Big Prop does that.. My Electric Tilt allows me to raise and lower that motor from the helm.. THATS HUGE!! IMHO.. My 4 stroke is quite and vibration free.. That for me is HUGE as well.. and face it , over all a 4 stroke is going to get better mileage than a 2 stroke . Though...... ETec makes some good arguments.. at least at lower RPMS...WOT ETecs are Gas hogs..
X -v - M IMHO its more about $$ and cabin layout than speed.. under sail or under power.. these boat perform pretty close .. Your not going to be racing this boat .. Except to say as Roger says in the ad.. when ever you have two sailboats on the same body of water going the same direction? One of those "thinks" he's racing..
I am a project guy.. I have a 2 1/2 car garage that has only seen daily drivers inside One Winter..!! Its my workshop.. I AM ALWAYS building something..
Does YOUR wife ever have to come out and say .. Hey HONEY!! Its 10 PM! Time to call it a day!
I see no reason why? IF YOU LIKE The M you couldn't build a nice one out of an X ... For a lot less Money..$$$
EVERY ISSUE ... has already been dealt with on this board already, and its all in the Mod's Picture section..
I .......bought new.. Maybe it was, looking back, an with all I know now???? a Mistake...$$$ Its not like your buying a keel boat sitting on the water and difficult to check every inch of it.. If your like most of us ( 90%) ? Your boat, can or will .. sit right there at your house and be worked on at your leisure convenience and desire.. All That said.. You need to not only have the tools ??? You really need to know how to use them.. Not Everyone does.. different strokes for different folks..Just dont fool yourself into believing that you'll be building things you can be proud of and that work as desired if you've never done any of this before.. I have freinds and family who ARE NOT..good with tools . In Spite of how easy I and others can make things look..
If you are one of those who will have to pay for everything to be done? Buy New and Maybe ?? Look at a Seaward??
I can completely .... barrier coat and bottom paint my boat for under $350.. It will cost you $2000 or more at a Boat Shop / Marina.. You'll pay as others have here $300 to $400 for a simple raw water wash down and I did that and included electric valves and plumbing to pump out my ballast . for under $150..Same exact unit they have..

[ROAD Soldier]

IMHO....
Except to say as Roger says in the ad.. when ever you have two sailboats on the same body of water going the same direction? One of those "thinks" he's racing..

Here is a prime example how people can find common ground here on this site. Divecoz is one I have been at odds with at times but I agree with 99% of what he just wrote. However I am at odds with the 1% statement above. What kind of handy man are you? Do you like performance projects or heavy laden keep your admiral happy ones? This will go along way in determining how you feel on the statement above.

[nedmiller]

I would suggest that you first really look at the M and the X interiors and decide what would fit your family. My wife wanted to sleep in the forward berth because she really likes a lot of breeze and likes to look out the windows at night--doesn't like closed spaces. I think the X is better if you want to sleep in the forward berth. We extended the berth and it is very roomy.
We spend a lot of time sailing in waters that are unpredictably shallow and I've hit the bottom with the swing keel a number of times--each time it just popped up without damage. I'm afraid the daggerboard might not fare so well. If you are almost always going to be in deep water or lakes that are charted well, the daggerboard is excellent.
I a bought used Mac X and couldn't be more pleased. I am not a careful person and that doesn't go well with new stuff! In Lake Michigan this summer, I put a nasty gash on the side of the boat--would have killed me if it had been a new boat. I repaired the gel coat and will paint it this fall and it will look as good as the rest of the boat--but I'm not skilled enough to make it look new.
The X I bought had a lot of modifications, which normally I would shy away from, but the PO was a real craftsman and did beautiful work. I could not have done as good a job and every mod he did, I liked. You basically get mods for free since they don't tend to raise the price and may lower it. His mods were worth thousands (furnace, shore power, three batteries, solar panel, alcohol stove, brand new BigFoot engine, etc)

Look at as many boats as you can and don't fall in love too soon!

SILK

[ROAD Soldier]

I would suggest that you first really look at the M and the X interiors and decide what would fit your family. My wife wanted to sleep in the forward berth because she really likes a lot of breeze and likes to look out the windows at night--doesn't like closed spaces. I think the X is better if you want to sleep in the forward berth. We extended the berth and it is very roomy.
We spend a lot of time sailing in waters that are unpredictably shallow and I've hit the bottom with the swing keel a number of times--each time it just popped up without damage. I'm afraid the daggerboard might not fare so well. If you are almost always going to be in deep water or lakes that are charted well, the daggerboard is excellent.
I a bought used Mac X and couldn't be more pleased. I am not a careful person and that doesn't go well with new stuff! In Lake Michigan this summer, I put a nasty gash on the side of the boat--would have killed me if it had been a new boat. I repaired the gel coat and will paint it this fall and it will look as good as the rest of the boat--but I'm not skilled enough to make it look new.
The X I bought had a lot of modifications, which normally I would shy away from, but the PO was a real craftsman and did beautiful work. I could not have done as good a job and every mod he did, I liked. You basically get mods for free since they don't tend to raise the price and may lower it. His mods were worth thousands (furnace, shore power, three batteries, solar panel, alcohol stove, brand new BigFoot engine, etc)

Look at as many boats as you can and don't fall in love too soon!

SILK

IMHO this is the best reply to your question yet.

[NiceAft]

Here is my opinion, and I will try to give the least verbose answer I can.

(1) Some how, in person, see an and an up close. If just to see the difference in interiors. It made a difference to me. The hull shape makes an imperceptible difference. The size of the cockpit however could be more of an influence. Personally, the refinements in the cabin made a bigger impression on me. To each his own.

(2) If deciding on an , and money is not a concern, don't rule out used. I purchased my 2005 M new. If purchasing today, I would deffinetly be looking in the used market place. The savings could be large. More than enough to pay for the bigger motor and needed adaptations to the boat to handle a bigger motor.

Ray

On edit: While I was typing my answer, it appears that a similar answer was already being posted. I did not mean to duplicate.

[traderdave]

I bought a used x and then resold it. I looked around until I found the right deal and got one for about 17k. I resold it after using it for a year and making some modifcations to improve the interior look and usefullness. I resold for 21k and so lets say I broke even after using the boat for a year. I have owned lots of power boats in the past and breaking even was nice for a change. I will buy another x when I have the time to use it and again look for the right deal. If you pick one up that some usefull modifications and a newer engine so much the better.

The main reason I would buy another x is I like the cabin layout better, with the head close to the companionway door. You have an actual dedicated head and you can easily make modifications to turn the head compartment into a shower with a sump and pump out. I like the swing keel rather then the dagger board, because if you do manage to connect with the bottom it swings out of the way. I like to go to interesting places with not so much water, so that works for me.

I would never buy a new m, why would you buy something that loses a big chunk of money as soon as you own it. I would not buy the blue hull, I want a boat I can use with worrying about get a white scratch or mark, just by touching a dock.

An x at a good deal is my choice!

[robbarnes1965]

My 2 cents...

I bought an M new in 2007. It was my first boat since my 14ft catamaran so I knew nothing about larger boats and did not want to have the problems of an old boat. What I have learned so far:

- after joining a yacht club I have found that at any one time about 30% of the boats in the marina are for sale whether advertised or not and most of them are in pretty good shape if they are in the water. Most commonly sold due to moving, health, upgrade, job loss or lack of use - none of which have to do with the boat condition. The last Mac that sold was a guy who had his hips replaced and he wanted to go to a lower freeboard, easy to use powerboat for mobility reasons.

- New Mac is advertised on the factory site at $22 900 - 24mph. BULLS**T! A new Mac at $22900 has no engine and no foresail. Good luck getting 6 knots with that. You need an engine, foresail, probably a furler, toilet, safety gear, lines, etc, etc. I am close to $60k now. A used Mac on the other hand will be fully equipped for well under $35k tops and probably in great shape if you pay that much.

- I really like my Mac M. That said, if you are over 5ft tall you will find the bathroom too small. I never close the door. I also hate not having the little sink there. I am also not a fan of having the traveler right in the way of the companionway. The pedestal mounted mainsheet on the X lacks control but makes cockpit cleaner and safer. I have destroyed 2 dagger boards. The swing keel would have saved me some $.

- I have a 50hp honda engine. Geared up for a 2 week trip on the boat I just made, the boat would not get much over 10knots. The 50 is already pretty large on the M and makes squeezing through to go for a swim or re-boarding from the ladder a gymnastic activity. The X has more room but either way the high freeboard is tough and it's the only way. The boat would still get to 6 knots or so with a 10hp and would be much more pleasant to board from the stern. It would be 10hp or 90hp if I could do it over. Real power or convenience. The 50hp does neither. If you want to pull the kids on wake boards or whatever, the 50 will suck if you also plan to have ANYTHING else on the boat and more than 2 people. The weight makes a huge difference.

-for the M or X, it's great having a retractable/swing keel if you plan to sail a place with a lot of shallows. If you have deeper water nearby, a keel boat will be more stable . At my club water levels drop enough over the summer that, frequently by labor day, keel guys are stuck in the mud and can't take their boats out or the marina.

- we have a good shipwright at the club and I find most repairs or mods are relatively reasonable. I am not spending my free time repairing when I could be on the water.

-rob

[DaveB]

David,
In my life span of 40+ years owning some 10 powerboats up to 40 ft. and 8 sailboats I have learned to buy used except 3 powerboats that were bought new.
I didn't know if I would like the boat and was evoiding the new out of show room price drop if I didn't.
Thing is I loved them all and each had a purpose. I would fix up the older boats and always lost money but I had a good time working on them as much as useing them.
For the Mac.X I was looking for a boat that had no trailer as I didn't like the Mac. single axel steel trailer and found a used 1997 Mac.X with a 50 hp Honda and paid $7800 3 years ago.
Today I have spent a total of $13,200 on the boat that includes original cost plus a tandem aluminum new trailer,sterio,refig,C2000 jib,standing rigging replacement,3 new batteries,elect. panels and fans,all new foam chusions replacement and a bunch of other items.(new windows, rubrail,large anchor roller all not installed yet).
I figuare I can get what I put into it and still have 3 years free sailing.
The 90 hp Outboard I plan on getting will set me back $7400 with the $1500 trade in allowance.
I won't get $20,600 if I plan on selling, I am not but if I were all the items will get me top price for the boat and would be in demand with all the new add on's.
Your budget is the main factor, I wouldn't hold off buying as sooner you get out and enjoy so will your family.
You live today, you can always add things as you go along.
Dave

Hi there,

1st off, this forum is fantastic. Many thanks for all of the Mac information. I've never even *seen* a Mac, but thanks to your pics, mods, stories and ideas, I'm completely sold on getting one!

But what do I get? Should I wait until I can afford the "MacDaddy Mac" or get a used X to learn on sooner? Maybe I could sell it in a few years to a friend, upgrade to a new M and we could do Mac Family Adventures together.

I know I want a 90HP for skiing with kids and heavy loads. I want the safest trailer I can get, and I want to keep the skeptical Mrs. Admiral happy. It seems that an older model might already be fitted out; will I have problems putting a 90hp on a new Mac? I think I would lose the hull warranty. Will dealers or new outboard shops even install this "overpowered" 90hp engine?

What would you do if you had to do it again?

All the best,

David

PS, I searched but could not find a similar thread from months ago.

[Russ]

I know I want a 90HP for skiing with kids and heavy loads.

Remember, this is not a Mastercraft. If you really want to ski, buy a powerboat. If you want to pull kids around and something that floats, the Mac will work fine.
You probably won't find a new Mac with a 90, so if this is a decision maker, used it's gonna be. Mainly for legal reasons, dealers aren't going to do it without a signed waver.

I want the safest trailer I can get

Then that will likely be a used modified one. New trailers are minimal and fine for short hauls. Longer trailering, I'd go with a dual axle setup. Maybe a dealer would retrofit a new Mac trailer. Or you could take it to a trailer shop and have it done for under $2k.

It seems that an older model might already be fitted out

Yup, don't underestimate the addons. They add up. A new Mac fitted out with decent options is gonna run $36k+

will I have problems putting a 90hp on a new Mac? I think I would lose the hull warranty.

I wouldn't worry about the hull warranty. It's not gonna get used anyway. I've never heard of a hull failure ever.

Post your location and maybe you will find a member willing to take out out.

All the best,

David

PS, I searched but could not find a similar thread from months ago.[/quote]

[Matt19020]

Don't listen to the so called self proclaimed engineer type individuals that think they know what particular mod will do to the Mac that they haven't done. Also be very careful about what people express by what they read in a book about sailing, particularly when they try to apply it to what a Mac cant do. .

.....Agree