M or x from bare or salvaged hull

[Ixneigh]

I saw a few comments on this but didnt want to hijack the thread.
I concur with the mini keels or bilge runners for traking. I plan to put those on mine as soon as I can afford it. Mostly for improving the sailing in super shallow waters but also for better steering under power. I would make the water ballast tank accessible for potable water storage bladders. I would cut the deck where the skylights are and make that area FLAT for ease of working the sails. There would be a vertical step in the cabin just forward of the daggerboard case. I would move the head back to the rear of the cabin and have a different table arrangement.
If we are talking about just a hull and not even a usable deck mold the one could all sorts of improvements by making a new foamcored deck and cockpit. The section of footwell forward of the binnacle is next to useless and takes space from the aft berth.
For those wanting a shorter mast on the M take a look at my YouTube video of my v222
Although this was a fun experiment and needs a lot of refinement, the potential is there for a semi soft wing mast plus a jib. And no rigging holding up the spar. It maximizes off and down down wind sailing which is just perfect for a powersailor. Who sails up wind in these boats? Not me. Not for more then a few miles or just kicking around the harbor. It brings down the heeling forces to make water ballast more effective.
This would be an extensive job with strenthening the deck to support an unstayed mast but I think it would work well. A carbon fiber spar would be so light it could be picked up out of the boat by hand. Depending on your bridge hight you might only need to remove it for trailering. I can get my v222 with it's new rig under all the bascule bridges near me.
So far my gripe with unstayed masts is the difficulty in flying a jib. The mast is too flexible for good luff tension. This admittedly weird looking rig solves that problem wonderfully. Even a tiny jib makes a huge improvement on the basic standing lug rig. It's so easy to set up Im surprised I have not seen the rig in use before.
While it's very doubtful I would do this mod on an existing M, if we were talking just a hull it might be another thing.

[mastreb]

I'm willing to hijack this thread and call it "Things I'd like to see in the next generation Mac"

-- Weighted daggerboard with a winch pull-up and firm seating when down to eliminate "night rattle"
-- Stock ballast tank vent tube to the chain locker and flapper valve on the inside of the ballast tank gate valve to make the ballast system inherently safe, with a push-pin to open or keep open.
-- Tabernacle that connects to the boom, so the boom and main sail bag can be left in place when the mast is lowered (plus takes 3' off the bottom of the mast length)
-- 6' shorter gaff-rigged carbon fiber mast. In sum with gaff and tabernacle, the mast is 9' shorter and no longer needs to be moved from pulpit to tabernacle--just folded down. These boats can't sail that close to the wind anyway, so the gaff rigging should not be a disadvantage over bermuda. This also makes the mast so light and easy to lift that the mast raising system would be unnecessary.

The mast and rigging change would make these boats MUCH simpler to trailer.

Matt

[captronr]

If the mast is 9 ft shorter, don't you lose enough sail area to really slow down the sailing speed?

Just asking cuz I don't know.

It would be nice to make the mast rigging easier/faster. I doubt I'd switch, but the speed to rig a catboat seems inviting.

I guess it might be workable to have a second mast, rigging, and sail if I could swap back and forth fairly easily. It would be the best of all world: In a slip at home port, use the standard rig. Want to road trip with fast set up, use the folding mast.

OK, someone put together a plan and costs to do this afford-ably, assuming it works of course. Think of the advantages of taking your X/M on the road, with settup reduced to almost nothing..............

Ron

[Ixneigh]

The problem with a gaff rig is that it needs an unstayed mast. That is a big project on an x or m requiring major surgery. On my old 222 there was no liner and the finish on the inside was rough at best. It was a fairly simple matter to create a mast step and thicken the deck to take the side loading.

[Crikey]

Now you've got me wondering .....
What would be the weight reduction of a carbon fibre mast over the current rotating aluminum (aluminium) setup?

[mastreb]

The problem with a gaff rig is that it needs an unstayed mast. That is a big project on an x or m requiring major surgery. On my old 222 there was no liner and the finish on the inside was rough at best. It was a fairly simple matter to create a mast step and thicken the deck to take the side loading.

Gaff rigs can have fore and side stays, just like a Mac. The backstay is the only stay that has to go, and frankly with a short carbon fiber mast the aft stays wouldn't be necessary anyway.

[mastreb]

Another thing I'd like to see from a future model is mounts for dual counter rotating outboards and a single larger center rudder. This provides much better low speed control in currents and wind, ability to rotate the boat in place, and doesn't cost much more: Two 30hp E-TECs run $4000 each, which is only slightly more than the cost of a single 60. You also get redundancy from having two motors, either of which could get you home, and it completely opens up the transom when the rudder is down. It would theoretically take up more aft cockpit space, but you can put stern rail seats over the motors to reclaim that.

[mastreb]

The problem with a gaff rig is that it needs an unstayed mast. That is a big project on an x or m requiring major surgery. On my old 222 there was no liner and the finish on the inside was rough at best. It was a fairly simple matter to create a mast step and thicken the deck to take the side loading.

Gaff rigs can have fore and side stays, just like a Mac. The backstay is the only stay that has to go, and frankly with a short carbon fiber mast the aft stays wouldn't be necessary anyway.

Actually I think the sprit rig would be best for a Mac. Greatly increased sail area makes for a much shorter mast, rotating mast can accommodate the necessary sprit movement, lower center of effort means much reduced heeling, and it can be sailed loose footed. 25' of carbon fiber sprit will cost about $250 in 5' segments. Reefing is simpler and more precisely controllable, and tests have shown the sprit rig to be more efficient than the Bermuda rig at all points of sail, even on the "Bad tack" side where the sail is deformed by the sprit. I wonder what a sail shop would charge for a sprit rigged main?

[Ixneigh]

Both the sprit and the gaff rigs really benefit from unstayed masts so you can let the sheets all the way out and not have the boom hit any shrouds. That swept back spreader setup on the M preclude good mainsail set off the wind.
There are hi tech variations of old low aspect rigs that would work well on these boats.
The problem is carrying a jib. No backstay mean no jib, usually. Or one thats useless for beating. The unicorn lugrig fixes that, with the addition of a lightweight spar and three stays that do not restrict the mainsail boom. All it takes is a little jib. A sprit rig would work just as well as lug. I happen to like standing lugs better then sprit rigs in larger sizes. Just personal prefs. My lugrigged v222 is only about a knot slower on a beam reach then my brand new M. Off the wind with my oem main, the venture is FASTER the the M!. Plus she does not heel past 10 degrees usually, with her now much lower mast hight but still having her heavy keel. Perfect for people who like boats that dont lean.
I wouldnt mind that feature in the M as well.

Ixneigh

[Bransher]

Interesting reading guys, but I think I will leave my M boat just the way Roger designed it. I would rather spend my time sailing with a Margarita in my hand while listening to Jimmy Buffet. I don't have the ambition that you fellows appear to have, nor do I have the marine engineering training that Roger has, and if I wanted all the mods you talk about, I think I would just buy a different boat that was designed with them. It also seems to me that once you start cutting and modifying, you have greatly decreased the resale value.

[Divecoz]

I agree Bransher.. I too will not be cutting and tossing...and buying $$$$$$$$$ and replacing
First off, finding a bare bones hull for the right price would be difficult at best.. These hulls are the entirely wrong hull design for a Cat or a Tri.
When you start talking Carbon Fiber Anything, you raise the cost 3 to 6 times.. or MORE!
Adding / changing even a few items on this boat , at the factory, would in time, and IMHO, in a very short amount of time make these boat financially unapproachable for many. Lots of fellows come here , and start with asking Questions about Used X versus New M? All because of its present cost.. .. Your talking USED...( ball Park #'s) $14=18K for an X..and $20K and above for an M. That makes them all .... A Lot of Bang for the buck and all but indestructible.
Nothing, on the market today ....competes with them not for the price the size and the over all usability under sail or under power ....Others have tried and all have failed miserably to compete with these boats ( #s Sold). I honestly believe that Price is one of the very first considerations when designing and building/ mass producing these boats. The Price is what has made these boats so popular. No Doubt at all , that Price is coupled.... with aesthetics and easy sail-ability too.These boats lend themselves to modifications thats for sure,if.... you choose to do so. If you choose not too, they operate more than adequately..
Its mentioned often that they dont sail like a "standard " Sailboat. No Kidding...They're not a displacement hull.. They're Not a fixed keel . Yet Jon / The Highlander......and to a lesser degree for now so have Beene and Q1 have proven these boats can be sailed hard and even fast. I expect in time when Ixneigh and others here, with sailing experience , get their boats set up they way they want them ($$$) They too will show what these boats can really do. On the X's ?? DaveB sure seems to be holding his own against other sailboats.. and he's doing it on a budget..
WHY THEN? Do so many of us "complain" about how this boat sails? Its All a matter of Ability! A Lack of sailing ability and the ability / knowledge to set these boats up to point and to sail fast..Well at least , that's my excuse / reasoning ..Like many here , this is really my first sailboat.. I learned to sail it? In about 2 hours.. and I will need the rest of my life to get better.. That's common with most things in life. It all equated to time spent doing it and correcting what I am doing wrong..
The same thing happened a year or so ago to me.. I got back into playing guitar. I bought an entry level Washburn Delta King.. After a few months I saw where that $350 MSRP guitar was lacking and I only paid $200 for it. I could have spent $200 to $400 trying to correct the problems / failings.. But why? I bought a better guitar. Still not a professional model, but much better than the ENTRY level unit, I started with.. I now play a Hofner Limited Edition Very Thin.. Everything about it is better and thats why it had a MSRP of over $1000. That's where I will stop on guitars and the is no doubt where I will stop on sailboats.... Its what I can afford /justify.. $$$

Interesting reading guys, but I think I will leave my M boat just the way Roger designed it. I would rather spend my time sailing with a Margarita in my hand while listening to Jimmy Buffet. I don't have the ambition that you fellows appear to have, nor do I have the marine engineering training that Roger has, and if I wanted all the mods you talk about, I think I would just buy a different boat that was designed with them. It also seems to me that once you start cutting and modifying, you have greatly decreased the resale value.

[SRQBob]

As long as we're dreaming of the perfect Mac replacement:
The reason I bought the was the truly innovative aspects of the boat. I could go fishing or diving at a reasonable speed. I could laze around the bay and drink beer. And I could overnight for a couple or three days in a row with the accommodations of "luxury camping".
BUT, if we're going to discuss improvement: how about a "Powersailor Catamaran"? Planing hulls, no need for ballast, twin outboards and I'd like twin masts. To have usable living space on the bridge deck it would need to be scaled up a bit... I'm thinking in the mid-thirty foot range.
Trailering would no longer be easily achieved, but I never trailered my . With minimum draft, ability to beach (or anchor in a couple of feet of water), low mast height (two masts), an actual top powering speed in the 20+Knot range, and accommodations that allowed actually living aboard.
I know I'd be interested.

[Divecoz]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$[ you see much of that is on the market as is the price.. Dream on but remember it MUST come in on a trailer and under ??? $30K?? You dont give up a VERY Profitable business for one that may / probably will not.. succeed..$$$

As long as we're dreaming of the perfect Mac replacement:
The reason I bought the was the truly innovative aspects of the boat. I could go fishing or diving at a reasonable speed. I could laze around the bay and drink beer. And I could overnight for a couple or three days in a row with the accommodations of "luxury camping".
BUT, if we're going to discuss improvement: how about a "Powersailor Catamaran"? Planing hulls, no need for ballast, twin outboards and I'd like twin masts. To have usable living space on the bridge deck it would need to be scaled up a bit... I'm thinking in the mid-thirty foot range.
Trailering would no longer be easily achieved, but I never trailered my . With minimum draft, ability to beach (or anchor in a couple of feet of water), low mast height (two masts), an actual top powering speed in the 20+Knot range, and accommodations that allowed actually living aboard.
I know I'd be interested.

[Crikey]

OK here's my respectful two cents worth: Haven't any of you guys played around with cars in your younger days? My most enjoyable efforts was with Volkswagens - beetles and van. I think that would make a good analogy with the Macgregor (das volksboat). I did both bodywork and blueprinted an engine to 2180cc (150hp) - and sold it at a good price because everything was solid. To take your point of view I would be driving an Escalade and not my Escape.
I agree some Macgregor changes can be a little out in left field but most are well within the hot rodding realm ideal, and a whole lot of fun to boot! Yes that nemesis money is always in play but show me an owner of a more expensive system that doesn't lay out a bit more, and I'll show you an owner that likes the floating bar more than the rest of the scene. Weed on the hull is a direct giveaway.

Don't fix it if it aint broke doesn't work for me.

[mastreb]

I'm not talking about modding a Mac in this thread, I'm talking about a wishlist for the next generation 26 from MacGregor.

Price was not my primary consideration when I bought the Mac, although I absolutely agree that price is why it's the best selling boat series ever. My primary consideration was trailer-ability, because in San Diego, that's what REALLY saves you money. Slips here start at $500/mo. and go up to $1100 to accommodate a boat the size of a Mac. That's so much more over time than the cost of the hull that its astonishing.

I like the fact that there are a lot of different voices and experience here. I like considering all these different ideas, even though 99% of them will never amount to anything. Still fun!