Issue with training and certificates

[Watto]

Was going to post this as a reply to iredrider1177's post, but thouth it best to be a separate topic.

Good to hear iredrider1177 and the admiral is still keen after what sounds like a testing first day. This raises an issue that I have been noticing lately whilst doing my research into buying a boat myself. This is in no way a slight at iredrider1177 personnally.

1. Is it legal in the states for people in the states to operate a yacht/powerboat of this size without any sort of licence, certificate or proffessional training (such as inshore skippers certificate)(if so, scary)

2. Why would people not conduct some training before buying a yacht and just wacking the sails up , she'll be right! this can be a very dangerous sport for the untrained.

This is not the first time I have read people just buying their boat on a whim, and taking it out without any training. I myself have just completed my small boat skipper course, and next month will be undertaking my inshore skippers course. At the end of the year I hope to upgrade to coastal skipper during a sailing holiday. I havent even bought a boat yet, but when you have the responsibility of the lives onboard, I would thing everyone would want as much training to fall back on as possible. I have seen conditions change on the water so drastically and without warning that to be caught out without some basic skills seems almost suicidal.

[Divecoz]

#1, Watto it would help us to understand better where your coming from, if you posted where your from.
#2. If your over the age of I believe 16 =18 ( varies state to state) yes you can..
If your from any number of European countries and you have driven here
on our highways and byways very much at all, you see that classes and testing seem to be of very little help.... very little
#3. I am among those here who has never taken a class for boating of any kind.. ( the Wife did, for a week in Tortola) I guess a little common sense and consideration for others goes a long ways .. theres not a lot of mystery to these size boats... though I have been at the wheel of power boats now for 40 + years.. That's where I see the most trouble originating from.. Newbies behind the wheel of a fast power boat and Fast can be anything capable or reaching 30 + mph.. more or less depending on conditions.. Not much to learn or so it is that many new owners think , other than Push THAT THING.... Allllll the way forward and go real fast...!!
#4. I've taught 3 sports , in two I emphasized that among other things ....speed kills.. Except at high speed ( 15mph ?) and in close quarters , these boats are pretty user friendly..
Might I someday take a class? Honestly? Only if I ever anticipate wanting to charter a larger boat, somewhere on vacation..

[mastreb]

Boats predate the concept of licenses. Hence, no license is required. The reason is simple: Laws don't exist to keep you from killing yourself, that's your right. They exist to keep you from killing other people (or, at least, from having to clean you up).

The statistics on killing 3rd parties with a boat are vanishingly small compared to other types of vehicles, so there's just no real excuse to license it. Boat accidents in general tend to be no big deal because they tend to happen at low speed. That's why the insurance is so cheap.

Not saying I believe in going out without some real training, just explaining why it is the way it is. I've never taken a class, but I crewed on a boat for five years before I bought my first one, and the Mac is my second. First powerboat though, and that's the part I'm still figuring out. I've not spent more than five minutes going over 7 knots with the motor. Don't really see the point.

[Catigale]

The regs are not uniform across t he states. Most of us old farts are grandfathered past where we have to certify. There is a pretty good article on state regs in this months Boat US magazine. One place I'll note without reciprocity is the PA NJ water border (Ray, Matt, Kevin?)... The mag states that you can easily be ticketed for no certificate since these two states domt recognize each others programs fully.....

[Watto]

oops, sorry forgot to mention, Im from Australia, where we have a national yacht training scheme, which is alligning with the royal yachting association at the moment.

Our powerboat regs are that if it goes over 10kts, you need a licence. I am not sure about our exact enforcement of buying a yacht and sailing without a licence, but as I am a fan of training and expanding my knowledge by drawing off experts, I didnt go into it that much. Also, as I hope to pregress towards a charter skipper once I leave the Navy, licenses are my friends

[sibblet]

Maybe this is the Texan in me, but I think many here would find the idea of licensing something like this mildly offensive. I have yet to ever see licensing of anything actually weed out stupid. I would also assume that any licensing would focus on right of way and safety regulations. Most pwc are extremely different in how they are handled, so in the long run that is always left as an exercise for the reader. Licensing is usually more about taxation and density control for a limited resource. Some things like this, until density issues overwhelm them, are better just left to being viral, like bike riding, or camping, it is just people teaching people.

Specifically about that story, most of it was him sharing learning a new piece of equipment and much of his wasted time was due to the unique rigging experience of a trailerable. Besides what I took as an attempt at comic relief about wide eyed kayakers, there doesn't sound like there was any real danger just learning.

All that said, I don't live in Jersey where they have somehow convinced their population that pumping gas should be left up to the professionals. The last NJ professional that pumped my gas had an inch of ash hanging off his lit cigarette. You can't stop stupid.

[Miss_Dallie]

Was going to post this as a reply to iredrider1177's post, but thouth it best to be a separate topic.

Good to hear iredrider1177 and the admiral is still keen after what sounds like a testing first day. This raises an issue that I have been noticing lately whilst doing my research into buying a boat myself. This is in no way a slight at iredrider1177 personnally.

Watto, you may actually be talking about Cindy and I regarding our First Day Out post (Miss_Dallie). iredrider1177 had replied to it. I wrote that post to share our experience for those who have yet to experience the thrill of their first day out and for those who have could (and did) provide tidbits to help those of us in need.

I don't take offense at what you say; my hulll may be blue but I'm green. I have taken boating safety courses with the United States Power Squadron when I lived in South Carolina. I had a friend with a power boat and we went out skiing, fishing and just relaxing a lot.

Cindy and I have learned to tie a one handed bowline around our waste in case of trouble (i learned this from the courses I took from the USPS). We have read the rules of the road. I am reading a book on sailing. What we hadn't done is put the boat in the water.

I completely understand where you are coming from but when you finally buy your boat you too are going to want to put it in the water as soon as you can. You have to start somewhere. You said you don't have a boat but are taking classes; I hope those classes include on hands and on water training because the classroom certainly isn't the same as being on a boat and actually feeling the effects of the wind on your sails.

We learned a lot on Sunday, no one got hurt, and we will progress, slowly at first, but surely. That said...

Badges, we don't need no stinkin' badges!

Aloha,
Ron

[Divecoz]

I agree with this train of thought as well..
I was.. am a NAUI Scuba Instructor.. Its often a joke on the docks and in the boats .. We see someone with a Dive Jacket on and a bunch of "those badges" Sewn to the sleeves and expect them to be either really good at the sport or really bad.. No In Betweens...It doesn't take long to be able to begin spotting right off the posers and the book readers.. versus the Doers.. I made a dive with a fellow who possessed a Single Cert. Open Water Diver.. He was an excellent diver.. My best friend and I dove on boat for a deep air dive with a lady who carried Dive Master Cert. wore no less than a dozen specialty badges on the arms of her jacket.. you guessed it.... my buddy Jim had to do a deep water 185 FSW rescue on her ..Book knowledge was all she possessed..

You said you don't have a boat but are taking classes; I hope those classes include on hands and on water training because the classroom certainly isn't the same as being on a boat and actually feeling the effects of the wind on your sails.

We learned a lot on Sunday, no one got hurt, and we will progress, slowly at first, but surely. That said...

Badges, we don't need no stinkin' badges!

Aloha,
Ron

[seahouse]

In Canada you must have a "Pleasure Craft Operator's Card" which you can get after taking a course and passing a Canadian Cost Guard accredited test. It's been optional for about the last 7 or so years during phase-in, and just became mandatory last year, or before. The standards are minimal, the scope general, and upgrading with further specialized courses is encouraged and motivated by discounts in insurance rates. I would guess that the lack of the PCOC would make you ineligible for insurance coverage.

If you drink and drive in a boat, they can take away your auto driver's license at the same time, no messing around! It is customary in some circles to sail over the Cdn/US water borderline in the middle of the lake and break out the wine, where it is legal, then return. Our whole area of Lake Erie is routinely patrolled by multiple law agencies (including border services who, when present, have the right to search and seizure), who are friendly and courteous when they approach ('cause they're havin' fun boatn' too), but regularly check for a various assortment of different things at different times, including your PCOC.

-B.

[Watto]

Let me clarify what I meant by the term license, sorry for the confusion.

I did not mean the equivilant of a drivers license which the state wants you to fork over cash for every year. I was refering to the tiered system of qualifications that the governing body of yachting in your country (Yachting Australia here down under) has set.

These levels from competent crew, inshore skipper, coastal skipper, offshore skipper and ocean yachtmaster, are awarded upon successful completion of theory and practical courses (usually several days classwork and a week or so at sea). each one assesses you as competent to a safe unsupervised level for the conditions set for each level.

I would of thought inshore skipper would be the minium anyone would want to attain before taking out a yacht of this size, especially those whose crusing grounds are on the coast and not inland.

The courses I have undertaken so far involved 8-10 hours of theory class in the evenings during the week, as well as 2 full weekends on the lake (canberra is inland). what is covered is the points of sail, capsize recovery, man overboard, approaching and leaving the jetty/ramp/beach. weather and tides are also covered. I also earnt my powerboat operators license thanks to my navy training, which you need if you want to power above 10kts

Next month, I am undertaking my inshore skippers course, which is 5 days and nights sailing on the coast.

Please bare in mind also I come from a paragliding background with a similar tiered system of competency, so thats is what I am used to and I believe works. Being assessed by governmental department = bad. being assessed by enthusiastic experts who wish to further the community in a safe manner = awesome

[sibblet]

That is similiar to our ASA certifications.

http://www.american-sailing.com/

[Hamin' X]

Actually, I believe that a similar system exists in the US, at least on boats for hire. The San Diego boat was a charity boat, But I should think that the the same rules that apply to charters, would apply to it.

~Rich