Reefing

[Frank C]

Jib or genny, the existing winch locations are not friendly even with only one crew. When singlehanding in particular, they couldn't be more poorly situated.

Actually, I prefer sitting mid-cockpit. This means any crew would be at helm and I'll deal w/ all sheets myself, thankyou. Also, Moe, means your petite helper needn't fret about winches, ropes, or wenches.

[Moe]

And get my lard-ass a little further forward and on the windward side to fight heeling

--
Moe

[Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL]

IMO you don't need winches on a cruising boat this size; neither halyard winches (obviously), nor sheet winches. If you want to sheet in the headsail, point slightly into the wind to take the pressure off, and sheet it in.
When single-handing, I run the sheets back to the helm.
As I've said before, the only thing I use my winch for is to tighten up my hammock on the foredeck.

[Chip Hindes]

Actually, I prefer sitting mid-cockpit. This means any crew would be at helm and I'll deal w/ all sheets myself, thankyou.

With the sheet winches where they are, if you want to deal with all the sheets yourself (you're welcome) you essentially need to have everything forward of the pedestal on both sides of the cockpit clear. Barely practical and a big PITA. When singlehanding, it's worse as you have to let go of the wheel and go well forward and well to the leeward side to adjust the genny sheets, compromising the balance of the boat. I've actually tried crossing the genny sheets to the windward side where they're somewhat more practical, but it really compromises the cockpit and they tend to get tangled up when tacking. ST winches at the corners is my solution.

[SPC Paul]

I have a question for those of you with single line reefing systems. I plan to add single line reefing to my boat this spring, and I have only the factory reef points in my main. With a single line reefing setup run to those points, is it possible to simply stop at a point halfway, or is a second set of reef points required?

Jared

[Frank C]

San Francisco's Pineapple Sails has an article on reefing that's very enlightening. Basically their head sailmaker advises against single line reefing for some very good reasons.

Chip, I'm not sure I see the problem with mid-cockpit sheeting. That's my usual approach, though granting that I always have a companion at the helm. With that future autopilot, I'd be happy as a clam in that forward position myself. I agree w/ Bill that I rarely use the winches after the mast has been raised. Cross-sheeting to the higher winch has just seemed too much trouble.

I don't find the sheets in a tangle. The lazy sheet is out of my way across the upper deck, the working sheet is at my hand and tailing into the cabin, and the mainsheet is at the other hand and on the sole at the pedestal. All other lines are coiled and draped into the companionway.

For those rare times I end up w/the Genoa in 15 knots ... well, no choice then, the load on that Genny demands several wraps. Even so, I never use the winch handle - too much trouble. You can sweat the Genny sheets in same manner as used to tighten the main halyard. Anyhow, if I add a removeable traveler, it will span the seats either at the companionway or just afore the pedestal. Different strokes, I guess.

[Scott]

I jumped in late on this post but all have seemed to miss the correct time to reef. As soon as you think about it.

When I sail with the missus I have reefed as early as 10k. When sailing alone or with my brother I have sailed with the full rig in 20 k+, though you dont make optimum headway due to rounding and heeling it sure is fun.

No need to put your family or rig in peril, just reef when you think you should reef and let the supersailors beat up their equipment.

[baldbaby2000]

... But, WADR, do not loosen the vang. In fact, a 12:1 vang can add tremendously to your ability to keep the main flat and deter heel.

As mentioned before, loosening the vang allows air at the top of the main to spill due to the added twist and can reduce heel; although in moderate winds I think having the vang tight will help because it flattens the sail. If you have a 26M you can also let out the traveller.

I don't know if you're considering a 26M. We have sailed ours on just the main and it seems to handle fine but I haven't done that in big winds yet. Maybe someone who has can comment.

BB

[norbert]

interesting discussion! my 2 -cents:

chip, i also thought about winches on the back corners (i saw them on a x in france) but since i changed my favorite position in the cockpit. when singlehanding i am mostly sitting in front of the pedestal (between pedestal and cabin bulkhead). this is a very comfortable place where you are less rocked by the swell, have all sheets and winches handy and can quickly step down into the cabin for your chart, drink, glasses or whatever you need. this place is also better to balance the boat as you are closer to the center of gravity and further outside to work against the heeling. it is quite easy to steer from there (especially if you have a larger wheel). i agree that it eases the handling of the sheets if you have an autopilot or at least something to block the wheel. i used to have a short piece of line handy on the rear cleat to tie the wheel when going upwind. now with the autohelm it is much better.

bill, i rarely disagree with your posts but this time i do. i also control my sheets without using a winch in moderate airs. but i have been failry often in winds where my muscles and my 200 lbs counterweight did not suffice to pull in the jib as close as i wanted. to point into the wind to take the pressure out of the sail in one way to go but you risk to stall the boat and you have to adjust your course after that and control your sails again... i prefer to be on my course and adjust the sails using the winch. btw i also need it to lower and raise the mast (always single handing).

concerning the vang: i am with frank c, pulling the boom down with the vang flattens the sail, takes power out of it and decreases heeling. loosening the vang gives more belly in the sail, more power and more heeling in strong winds. [we are talking of the boom vang - the one going from the boom to the mast step! not of the sheet vang from boom to pedestal. this latter one can be released to reduce heeling in gusts (but this will result in flapping sails, so only a temporarely cure).] i can easily pull the 4:1 vang as strong as the boom is sesibly bent.

[Chip Hindes]

Chip, I'm not sure I see the problem with mid-cockpit sheeting. That's my usual approach, though granting that I always have a companion at the helm...the working sheet is at my hand

The problemn is exactly as I stated it. I singlehand, and don't have a helmsperson. Even if you do have a separate helmsperson, if the working jib sheet is "at hand" instead of across the cockpit, you're on the wrong side of the boat.

If your sheets are "set them and forget them" and you don't need extra wraps and the handle on the winch, you are a totally different kind of sailor than I. Obviously, I run way more sail than you do. There's not not a chance you could adjust my sheets by "milking them like a halyard". I guess that's how you can sit on the leeward side as well.

[Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL]

The response to my previous post on this topic by Chip had me so confused I had to go and sit in my boat to see if I could figure out how something so simple could become so complicated. Chip, are you an engineer, by any chance?
I run my jib sheets from the jib cars, between the rope clutch and stanchion (near the winch), along the cockpit coaming top, through a fairlead and cam cleat, both on a swivel. On my 26C (atop the coaming, athwart the tiller) and both 26X's (just aft of the Genoa track) I used the Harken # 240, I believe. On my 26M I have a fairlead and cam cleat, both on a swivel, on a car that goes on the Genoa track.
I run my Genoa sheets through the Genoa car on the Genoa track (actually, I use one set of jib cars for both Jib and Genoa, moving them from Genoa track, to jib track as needed), through the fairlead and cam cleat on a swivel, mounted on the car on the Genoa track. They are about athwart the wheel, and easily within reach. I don't just "set them and forget them". The working sheet is "at hand".
If you fly more than the Genoa and the Mains'l, then yes you do, obviously, run way more sail than I do. I never sit on the leeward side.
As for tightening the Genoa sheets, a quick S-turn, into the wind to take the pressure off the sail and sheet it in, and back off, you hardly lose any momentum and stay on course.
Apparently some people have different ways of doing things. This works for me. I try to make things safer and simpler, not more complicated.

[Mark Prouty]

The response to my previous post on this topic by Chip had me so confused I had to go and sit in my boat to see if I could figure out how something so simple could become so complicated. Apparently some people have different ways of doing things. This works for me. I try to make things safer and simpler, not more complicated. Chip, are you an engineer, by any chance?

Engineers
You know vector calculus but you can't remember how to do long division.
You've actually used every single function on your graphing calculator.
It is sunny and 70 degrees outside, and you are working on a computer.
You frequently whistle the theme song to "MacGyver".
You know how to integrate a chicken and can take the derivative of water.
You think in "math".
You've calculated that the World Series actually diverges.
You hesitate to look at something because you don't want to break down its wave function.
You have a pet named after a scientist.
You laugh at jokes about mathematicians.
The Humane society has you arrested because you actually performed the
Schrodinger's Cat experiment.

Schrodinger himself said, later in life, that he wished he had never met that cat.

You can translate English into Binary.
You can't remember what's behind the door in the engineering building which says "Exit".
You have to bring a jacket with you, in the middle of summer, because there's a wind-chill factor in the lab.
You are completely addicted to caffeine.
You avoid doing anything because you don't want to contribute to the eventual heat-death of the universe.
You consider ANY non-engineering course "easy".
When your professor asks you where your homework is, you claim to have accidentally determined its momentum so precisely, that according to Heisenberg it could be anywhere in the universe.
You'll assume that a "horse" is a "sphere" in order to make the math easier.
The blinking 12:00 on someone's VCR draws you in like a tractor beam to fix it.
You bring a computer manual / technical journal as vacation reading.
The salesperson at Circuit City can't answer any of your questions.
You can't help eavesdropping in computer stores... and correcting the salesperson.
You're in line for the guillotine... it stops working properly... and you offer to fix it.
You go on the rides at Disneyland and sit backwards to see how they do the special effects.
You have a habit of destroying things in order to see how they work.
You have never backed up your hard drive.
You haven't bought any new underwear or socks for yourself since you got married.
You spent more on your calculator than on your wedding ring.
You think that when people around you yawn, it's because they didn't get enough sleep.
You would rather get more dots per inch than miles per gallon
You've ever calculated how much you make per second.
Your favorite James Bond character is "Q," the guy who makes the gadgets.

Software Engineer
A man was crossing a road one day when a frog called out to him and said: "If you kiss me, I'll turn into a beautiful princess".
He bent over, picked up the frog and put it in his pocket. The frog spoke up again and said: "If you kiss me and turn me back into a beautiful princess, I will stay with you for one week."
The man took the frog out of his pocket, smiled at it and returned it to the pocket. The frog then cried out: "If you kiss me and turn me back into a princess, I'll stay with you and do ANYTHING you want". Again the man took the frog out, smiled at it and put it back into his pocket.
Finally, the frog asked: "What is the matter ? I've told you I'm a beautiful princess, that I'll stay with you for a week and do anything you want. Why won't you kiss me ?"
The man said, "Look I'm a software engineer. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a talking frog is cool."

Are Mac's the perfect boats for engineers?

[Frank C]

Obviously, I run way more sail than you do.

• Ouch! ... that "obviously" must be so.

For anyone else that I must have confused just as surely, I was agreeing w/ Dealer Bill that after the mast is up I only use the winches for a wrapping-point. I was also sharing the sailing techniques that I learned from my dealer, and suggesting some ways one might avoid adding winches aft. At risk of disagreeing w/Chip (never) I mostly agree too w/Norbert. (Norbert, you clearly must not have enough sail aloft)!

I nearly always sit mid-cockpit on the windward (higher) cockpit seat. The lazy sheet is not underfoot since it's stretched fully across the upper deck. The working sheet is usually wrapped twice on the lower winch and cleated. It remains "at hand." I like it tailed through the companionway and down into the cabin. The mainsheet is underfoot on the cabin sole, also "at hand."

The reasons I never use the winch handle - simple convenience. When flying the jib, even in winds up to +20 knots it just seems easier to plant my feet and haul on it. I always wear sailing gloves. I haven't ever found it necessary to "sweat" (or milk) the jib. On rare occasions when I have guests, I either sit on the lee (lower) side, or I cross-sheet from lower to upper winch. This makes the sheets less intrusive for guests.

Genoa sheets do consume some added space on the lee side because the lead from Genny-car to winch crosses the leeward seat. In its normal winds of 8 to 12 knots, I'm fine w/wrapping twice and then hauling the sheets by hand. Handling my Genny (UK 135 Tapedrive) in 15 knots though is a bunch more work than the jib at +20. Only when I find myself overpowered like this, I might sit leeward where I can easily sweat the sheet, but it is uncomfortable to sit there. The alternative is to cross-sheet to the upper winch. From this perch it's a no-brainer to sweat the sheet between the winches, still leaving the winch handle superfluous.

For those who have not tried it, cross-sheeting from lower to upper winch is easy. You just take a single wrap on the lower winch, then straight across the slider for two wraps on the upper winch. This permits you to very easily sweat the Genoa sheet tighter. Cleat the sheet at upper, pull straight aft at mid-point between the winches, then pull the slack through the upper cleat. That Genny sheet is now a couple of inches tighter.

So in summary .... I like sitting mid-cockpit, I never use the winch handle for sheeting and without a kite I'd find little-to-no use for aft winches. YMMV but try it, you might like it.

• But then it's obvious that I'm flying too little sail on SF Bay, I must obviously be sitting on the "wrong side" of the cockpit, and I obviously don't have a clue what I'm writing about.

The response to my previous post on this topic by Chip had me so confused I had to go and sit in my boat to see if I could figure out how something so simple could become so complicated.

Likewise .... obviously!

[Catigale]

Maybe its just me, but using the winch (which I do) seems a lot easier than cross sheeting and 'milking' the sheet......but since I havent tried the latter I can only argue in theory.

Wow...a talking frog...thats cool......!!!!!

[Frank C]

Actually, I agree that cross-sheeting can be a pain, but remember how rarely it's "needed." It's never needed for the jib, only when overpowered with the Genoa. Otherwise, consider it an option in lighter winds when you just want less lineage stretching through the cockpit.

Granting that it's a personal quirk, I'm averse to even having the winch handle on deck. It's a tangle risk, if it gets tangled it's a flying hammer, and I'm always expecting it to go plunck anyhow. I should just use it one afternoon and let it go plunck, gaining my excuse for cross-sheeting!