Bad performance beating

[c130king]

...At sea, in 15 knots TRUE and heeled at around 20 degrees I can typically maintain around 4 knots SOG at 45 degrees to the APPARENT wind, although VMG towards a windward mark is far less due to leeway and the the fact that the apparent wind moves forwards quite significantly, such that I am probably closer to 60 degrees off the TRUE wind. Hope this helps.

I would say this is probably my experience in the as well even in slightly less winds using the full 150 Genoa...45 degrees apparent and somewhere around 60 degrees to true wind...side slip and current (I do a lot/most of my sailing in a river) do factor in to VMG. Maybe a little bit better sometimes but not much.

And I don't race...just push myself to get as much performance as I can for the given situations.

In the winds as described by Hector I would have had my Genny rolled in half-way or maybe more and my one and only reef set...and then probably would have given up shortly after that and called it a day.

Don't like to work too hard when I single-hand.

Cheers,
Jim
Sailing on König

[ROAD Soldier]

Reefed main and standard jib in those conditions. As a guess the boat has the least drag at heel angles less than 20ish deg.

Here is a comparison, we had a standard jib and reefed main in winds that were hitting 20+ mph at times with a no more than 20 deg heel. Erik had a full main a furled Genoa (he tried not furled also) with a lot more heel. Erick had a weighted centerboard while we had more weight on the lee side of our boat. You can see the speed difference and the higher point.

In lower winds Erik beat us out with a full Genoa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_5Cb3flN60

Now Vic likes to bring this up a lot but for the record I totally blew by Erick who is in the picture below, is the 26x way behind me during pirate sail but however I do have to say, to Erick's credit he was man enough to face me unlike someone else who heard his Mommy calling him in some restaurant for breakfast.


On another serious note folks if you want performance like the picture above and below showing 7.9MPH on 12 gusting to 17 MPH you really need to go to the two headsails. It really transforms the Mac into a better than real sailboat.

[Québec 1]

Stock sails , lots of wind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSV1NpFn8Uc
Q1

[ROAD Soldier]

Not bad but how about going uphill. Going into the wind the same day I way going from 7.1 to 7.3 MPH.

[ronacarme]

Our X with main only is uncontrollable with CB full down. No surprise ...the center of effort is too far aft of the center of lateral resistance. With main only, sail with CB line only 3/8 to 1/2 out....the helm is balanced, the boat tacks reliably and is close winded.
Race if its fun for you, but our comfy X is slow, much slower than our old 26D, at best comparable to a Catalina 22 or less.
Ron

[vkmaynard]

Our X with main only is uncontrollable with CB full down. No surprise ...the center of effort is too far aft of the center of lateral resistance. With main only, sail with CB line only 3/8 to 1/2 out....the helm is balanced, the boat tacks reliably and is close winded.
Race if its fun for you, but our comfy X is slow, much slower than our old 26D, at best comparable to a Catalina 22 or less.
Ron

Have you tuned your boat by "bottoming out" the forestay turnbuckle? Our boat was also "uncontrollable". Now it behaves great. http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... f=7&t=7926

Victor

[vkmaynard]

Not bad but how about going uphill. Going into the wind the same day I way going from 7.1 to 7.3 MPH.

Was that uphill AND into the wind?

[Currie]

FWIW my best speed is 7.2 MPH-GPS on a close reach (not beating), full main with working jib, no water current in Saginaw Bay. I did have three other guys with me for counter ballast. It was great fun.

~Bob

[c130king]

Just out of curiosity what is the official hull speed of an and of an .

Seems to me the formula cannot be universal...find it hard to believe the same formula for determining hull speed will apply to all boats. Too much variation in weight, sail area, wetted area, etc... The issue of wave length vs. hull water line length seems like a stretch too me as a light boat that doesn't sit too deep in the water couldn't start to climb up out of that wave...maybe a heavier/deeper boat couldn't but a Mac probably could.

I just don't buy it. I know I have hit 7+ mph several times and I don't think there wold have been much current/tide factor.

Just my $0.02 worth (not sure how much that is in the currency of Hong Kong... )

Cheers,
Jim
Sailing on König
Sailing on König YouTube Channel

[Currie]

Just out of curiosity what is the official hull speed of an and of an .

Seems to me the formula cannot be universal...find it hard to believe the same formula for determining hull speed will apply to all boats. Too much variation in weight, sail area, wetted area, etc... The issue of wave length vs. hull water line length seems like a stretch too me as a light boat that doesn't sit too deep in the water couldn't start to climb up out of that wave...maybe a heavier/deeper boat couldn't but a Mac probably could.

I just don't buy it. I know I have hit 7+ mph several times and I don't think there wold have been much current/tide factor.

Just my $0.02 worth (not sure how much that is in the currency of Hong Kong... )

Cheers,
Jim
Sailing on König
Sailing on König YouTube Channel

1.34 * sqrt( 23.2 ) = 6.45 knots * 1.15 = 7.4MPH

Hull speed is an estimate, and it's not universal. Any boat that planes (powerboat), semi-planes (Mac), or penetrates (catamarans) uses 'hull speed' very loosely, if at all. FWIW, the hull speed calculation was never meant to indicate a maximum limit. It only describes the location on a graph where the power/speed curve takes a sudden turn upwards. Most rounded displacement boats have no chance of supplying enough power to climb over the bow wave or break the stern suction. Other boats simply show less of a 'bump' on the curve, but they still fight the same phenomenon.

~Bob

[jschrade]

The Macgregor 26M has a semi-planing hull, these formulas do not apply to it.

Jim

[Highlander]

Well guy's here's my heavily laiden boat beating into the wind with two full head sails & full main as seen by my big flag flying off my topping lift & my bow cutting & ploughing through 1 to 1 1/2 meter waves and doing a good chore I might say maybe hitting 4kts sometimes a little higher can not remember for sure as I was too busy playing with sail trim I do remember that both my jib & genny cars were all the way aft on the genny tracks & remember thinking later I should have tried moving them foward to increase my speed but that may have also increased my heel but being heavy laiden maybe not !!
http://s844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/ ... 0_2494.mp4

Beene shot the vids so maybe he can give us a better idea of my hull speed and how high I was pointing at the time , which was pretty high acording to the wave direction head -on & the big Scottish flag flying striaght back .

Anyway Guy's I consider both of you to be my friends so please do not let Constructive Critisism tear us apart take it all in stride
Something for both of you to consider the pen is mighter than the sword !
Also consider this could a my boat beat out a 40ft hunter with masthead rig technacally No ' stasticaly impossible" where's my spell check but I did it & posted it here on a video
So be happy be friends or I will not share my Scotch with you's

J

[Highlander]

just a note too ponder on

As Road soldier was trying to imply You'd all be amazed what cutter rigging an will do to her sailing ability & performance specialy when heading up-wind

Also I was amazed at how much beene's Standard rig sailing speed increased after he applied his teflon anti fouling

J
PS 4hrs to go before I can have a wee dram

[ROAD Soldier]

I didn't notice it the first time but magnetic dug up one of my old posting back in 2008. In that posting I still agree with the statement I said for my at the time. However in 2010 I went to two head sails one being my 150% Genoa and one being a Storm Sail which has completly changed the sailing qualities of my boat. When I say completely I mean completely not just a little bit but completely. It is a very simple mod you need to try. The storm sail allows for pointing into a beat and then also directs the wind over the main and Genoa more efficiently. This is not a mod I can make you believe in words because I know I would have not believed it either like in 2008. So I will somehow, someway get a video on it so you can watch it with the speed on the GPS and windage pointer. It really is a game changer.

[vizwhiz]

Y'know, this has been a bunch of fun to follow!!

First, thank you to Road Soldier for being in the Army - (salute)! I appreciate your dedication. Somebody's got to do it, and I didn't, so thank you!

Second, I must point out that Road Soldier did NOT call magnetic a little crybaby and tell him to go home to Mommy, which he has done to others in here... See, he must like you magnetic! It would appear that RS is just being himself - he talks like that, or so it seems! (It was difficult for me to determine at first whether he just needed some Prozac or was really a stern-end, but now, well, it's just the way he talks...)

Third, magnetic has some good points about the physics, and if it means RS goes out and shoots a cool video proving his point, then we'll have some awesome videos to watch! And if RS can't prove his point, then...we'll just have some awesome videos to watch!

Last, I want someone to please define when a close reach becomes beating, and how you can tell if you don't have a wind-direction-O-meter and you're having to sail close to the wind?

Thanks, and cheers!