steadying sail?

[saltyrogue]

I have heard mention of a steadying sail?, possibly also called a storm sail? and perhaps this is what I need for my 26s. I am new to sailing (obviously) and have only had the boat out twice. The second outing was in Prince William Sound, which is a maze of passages, fjords, and bays. The wind can come whipping down off the glaciers quite unexpectedly, and this is what happened while we were motoring across to find an anchorage for the night. It was quite a ride with the hull thrashing and rolling back and forth, although my fourteen year old son thought it was 'wicked'. I have kayaked this region for decades and the waves simply lift my kayak and pass under me, but a sea kayak does not generate the momentum like umpteen hundred pounds of ballast does. I understand that a full sail counters the ballast, or vise versa. So.... how do I keep that ballast under control when I am not under sail. The blasts of winds off the mountains often disappear as soon as I gain the next point of land, so I don't want to put up the mainsail, especially if I am motoring for a purpose. Is small patch of easily rigged sail enough to counter this effect in a Mac? Things also get quite choppy in the main shipping lane with the fishing trawlers, sight-seeing ships, cruise ships, ferries, etc. Again I am a rolling and a shaking, but I don't know that having any sail up would counter this if there is no wind. I thought dropping the center board may work to slow down the effect.

I must say though, how fun and comfortable this boat is, especially coming from the sea kayaking world. This weekend we plan to tow the kayaks and use the Mac as a basecamp. After eight hours of paddling, rather than a bivy sack on a cold beach, I am returning to a dry, heated, lit cabin- with mattresses, a full cooler, even a pillow! I am in the lap of luxury. Way cool!

Thanks for your help.

Cheers,

Dave

[restless]

sail countering ballast?? Hmmm.. If you're suffering sudden squalls then having sail up is just going to knock you round more.
Stormsails are used to keep you sailing into the waves as taking them broadside can get seriously uncomfortable.
A centerboard down will help in stopping the boat being too twitchy, though you don't want it down if you're doing much above 8kts. Our X will go 45 either way in a tiny swell without the board down.. tho at night it is a real pita as it clunks.
Steadying sails are often used by fishermen as a smallish triangle on a sort of mizzen mast. Hence I guess they serve some usefull purpose, however I seriously doubt their effectivness in squalls. I'm considering something along these lines for use at anchor.
Hope this helps

[NiceAft]

When you wrote

with the hull thrashing and rolling back and forth

were the waves hitting you dead on the bow, or abeam (sideways to the boat)

If abeam, there is not much you can do other than to turn into the big waves, keep the ballast full, and keep the centerboard down (be certain you are not going faster than your owners manual says you can do under power with the center board down). Making certain that the ballast is full is essential whenever you ballast the boat.

how do I keep that ballast under control when I am not under sail

If it is sloshing around (I don't know that it is or not from your description), the ballast is not performing to its optimum, so make certain it is completely full. Also remember that ballasted boats are tippsier (is that a word ) than boats with keels. The ballast won't start working until it is out of the water.

Ray

[Chinook]

I must say though, how fun and comfortable this boat is, especially coming from the sea kayaking world. This weekend we plan to tow the kayaks and use the Mac as a basecamp. After eight hours of paddling, rather than a bivy sack on a cold beach, I am returning to a dry, heated, lit cabin- with mattresses, a full cooler, even a pillow! I am in the lap of luxury. Way cool!

Hi Saltyrogue,

Prior to purchasing our 26X in '02 our boating experiences were primarily with open canoe. We have taken our 17 foot Grumman lightweight on numerous wilderness trips, including saltwater paddles on the west side of Vancouver Island. We know exactly how you feel about the quantum leap in comfort, range and security which the Mac affords, when compared with a paddle boat.

[cmagnus4]

When you wrote

with the hull thrashing and rolling back and forth

were the waves hitting you dead on the bow, or abeam (sideways to the boat)

If abeam, there is not much you can do other than to turn into the big waves, keep the ballast full, and keep the centerboard down (be certain you are not going faster than your owners manual says you can do under power with the center board down). Making certain that the ballast is full is essential whenever you ballast the boat.

how do I keep that ballast under control when I am not under sail

If it is sloshing around (I don't know that it is or not from your description), the ballast is not performing to its optimum, so make certain it is completely full. Also remember that ballasted boats are tippsier (is that a word ) than boats with keels. The ballast won't start working until it is out of the water.

Ray

I agree with Ray that the ballast is essential for the stability of the boat but I think that this stability improvement starts as soon as the boat starts to lean not waiting until it is out of the water. See
http://www.sailingusa.info/design_winds.htm
for more on this subject.

Claes

[grady]

You have an S model do not worry about speed. (you can not go fast enough to damage the swing keel or rudder) You can go a litter faster with both up but you lose a lot of stability. I only raise mine when I am docking or going into shallow water. Keep both fully down when motoring if you engine will lock in the center position you can steer with the rudder a lot easier while underway. (and the opposite while docking) When you are anchored you will have center board "clunk" as the boat rocks but it will not rock as much. I have removed the "clunk" on mine but it took a complete upper center board and trunk re-design.

[saltyrogue]

Thanks to all for the response. I came across the reference to a steadying sail while reading about people who had converted sailboats into trawlers. The problem they were having was too much rolling in the winds and waves, which became more pronounced when the mast was removed. The righting action of the ballasted hull was too 'snappy', so some people left a shortenened mast with a steadying sail as described below.

"Her optional mast with steadying sail will ease the motion in a beam or following sea."

I do not plan to do this with my boat, but when I am not sailing, I am in 'trawler mode'.
It is the waves hitting the boat abeam that are the problem. I am thinking this may be the nature of water ballast, due to the fact that it does not become 'weight' until it is up out of the water. And a rounded hull lacks the stablizing effect of a projecting keel. Perhaps those of you who have both experience with lead and water ballast have noticed a difference. I suspect this is not a problem with the X or M hull because with a flatter surface designed to plane, they do not roll back and forth with no resistance like the hull of a D or S.

Dave

[ronacarme]

Based on recollection of our old 26D.....
1.Ditto Grady.
2.You cite 2 different rolling problems.....
A. sudden blast of wind on your beam.....Will suddenly heel (roll) your boat. Worse if you have ANY sail up. Minimize the roll with ballast tank fully filled and boards down. If you have enuf warning, steer into the blast. Roll should be less with the mast down, but you may find that to be overkill or impossible at the time.
B.wake of power boat .....if parallel to your course will heel (roll) your boat. Minimize the roll with ballast tank full, boards down, main (full or reefed) up and sheeted tight. Better yet, change course and steer to take that power boat wake on your bow, so your boat pitches rather than rolls (more comfortable for your crew).
Ron

[DaveB]

Dave,
I think what you need is a trisail, this would be as semi triangle flat sail that you use your mainsail track for. For your boat it would have about 4 ft. luff attached to mast slides,3/4 length foot of boom, the shape would be to have a aft clew lower and forward clew higher about 2 ft. to clear main sail.
This sail will take most of the roll away and much more comfortable. Some use a seperate 5 ft. track next to main Sail .
A trisail is often used with a Storm Sail in storm conditions (I used them both in 40ft. seas in winds 70 knots on a 1200 mile run to St. Thomas).
A steadying sail is most often used in a trawler with a mast for hosting the dink and steading sail, back 10 years and many more until Flopper stoppers were used.(remember the perfect storm movie,those were flopper stopers that went thru the windsheild.)
Flopper stoppers are small wings with a fin that is put on outriggers for steading the waves broadside.
You can use this method of twin wisker poles with 5 gal. buckets on each side in a beam wave at anchorage.
A trisail can also be used in reverse and hooked onto your back stay or in the case of a Mac.x that has the backstay to starboard hook it on your Topping lift, this is used to keep the bow to the wind to get better ventilation don below thru hatches and much less swing.
Dave

Thanks to all for the response. I came across the reference to a steadying sail while reading about people who had converted sailboats into trawlers. The problem they were having was too much rolling in the winds and waves, which became more pronounced when the mast was removed. The righting action of the ballasted hull was too 'snappy', so some people left a shortenened mast with a steadying sail as described below.

"Her optional mast with steadying sail will ease the motion in a beam or following sea."

I do not plan to do this with my boat, but when I am not sailing, I am in 'trawler mode'.
It is the waves hitting the boat abeam that are the problem. I am thinking this may be the nature of water ballast, due to the fact that it does not become 'weight' until it is up out of the water. And a rounded hull lacks the stablizing effect of a projecting keel. Perhaps those of you who have both experience with lead and water ballast have noticed a difference. I suspect this is not a problem with the X or M hull because with a flatter surface designed to plane, they do not roll back and forth with no resistance like the hull of a D or S.

Dave

[ROAD Soldier]

Ok there is some good information here and some that is totally off the mark. Saltyrogue stated" I have kayaked this region for decades and the waves simply lift my kayak and pass under me, but a sea kayak does not generate the momentum like umpteen hundred pounds of ballast does". Having a Folbot Folding Greenland II with the upwind sail rig I know exactly that. My outriggers stop me instantly when I start to heel from an unexpected wind gust when sailing and it is right there but when I am in strictly Kayak mode with no sail or outriggers I can stop it right there with my paddle extremely safe in weather situations as long as you are dressed for it because you will get wet. Chinook stated about his canoe trips on the west side of Vancouver Island. Canoes in the ocean? You got more balls then me buddy. Comparing a Kayak to a Canoe is like comparing a Laser Sailing Dingy to Westsail 32 in terms of the way it moves through the water and safety features. The Kayak is a ballasted boat with your hind-end being the ballast plus any gear laying on the bottom which is all below the waterline.
Now that I am talking about ballast which one is heavier 1400lbs of water or 1400lbs of lead? I think that is enough said on that, just make sure your ballast tanks are full because you don't want moving ballast whether it is water or lead; and please tell me I don't have to explain that. Now that we have covered Kayaks, ballast, and I am not even going to get into trawlers I am only 43 so I am not that old yet where I have to give up sailing.
Speaking of sailing that usually require sails unless you are in 50MPH winds then the boat itself becomes a sail because unlike a Kayak it has a lot of freeboard, hence I know this from experience with a Nor'easter. Yep even at 42 at the time my ego and complete lack of fear at times can still get me in trouble. I just do slightly better calculation compared to when I was younger. As proof of this when I was 21 or 22 and Hurricane Hugo came by Daytona Beach FL I went out body surfing and because of my physical shape and being able to hold my breath for over 2 minutes at the time I barely survived that experience. Now with Hurricane Earl that might hit my area later tonight my boat is on the trailer connected to the car ready to leave town in an instant.
If those wind coming off the mountains are not 50MPH or better which if they are like the Chinook Winds in Colorado the very well me be a storm sail is an excellent idea. I have recently gone to two headsails using a storm jib sail see http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... =7&t=16273 When using this set up I have found by putting up the Storm Jib first and taking down the Storm Jib last really smoothes out the boat as long as there is any kind of wind, provided the wind is under 50MPH. But then again if my motor quit in winds that high I would us the Storm Jib only to sail home.

[saltyrogue]

DaveB,

Thanks for the info on the trisail. I'll research this further.

ROAD Soldier,

Is 1400 pounds of water the same as 1400 pounds of lead? This is the question that keeps me awake at night. My midnight ponderings have lead me to believe that is I fill a 5 gal bucket with water and submerge it, the weight of the water is lost and only the weight of the bucket is subject to gravity. Yet if I were to tie a 5 gal bucket filled with lead around my neck, I may be in trouble. This makes me question the performance of water as ballast. Does the boat heel (thanks for adding the proper terminology ronacarme) further and pendulum side to side because the ballast is neutralized when it is below the surface. It only actually becomes weight when the boat is heeled over far enough for it to be subject to gravity. If so, then perhaps a few hundred pounds of permanent ballast in the form of lead would lessen the effect of these sudden glacial downdrafts. Granted, the water ballast has the additional effects of increasing draft which increases waterline length and wetted surface area, lower center of gravity, etc.

I know that when paddling in rough seas, a stuff sack filled with 15 pounds of gravel stowed in the hatch behind me does wonderous things to my stability, especially in a narrow beam, uber-light sea kayak.


When crossing the bay described in my original post, I did end up turning into the waves once the rocking became severe enough for the little red flag to go up in my brain, but again, I do not yet know from experience what the boat is capable of handling. Turning into the wind and waves did extend the crossing though.

Cheers,

Dave

[ROAD Soldier]

Water weighs about 8.35lbs per gallon so 5 gallons of water will weigh about 42lbs. 5 Gallons of lead will break your neck.

[NiceAft]

Turning into the wind and waves did extend the crossing though.

And as Captain Hook said in the original broadway stageshow, "That's where the canker gnaws "

Do you lengthen the ride to smooth the ride, or do you tough it out. If you tough it out, just be certain that everything below that is not tied down is placed on the sole.

ROAD Soldier, tie a rope aroung your waist, and attach an empty five gallon bucket to the other end. Toss it in a pool, and then doggie paddle. Does the bucket weigh 42 lbs plus the weight of the plastic bucket, or does it just weigh the weight of the bucket. Then displace the water in the bucket with 42 pounds of rocks, or whatever. See what then happens.

Ray

[ROAD Soldier]

Point well taken how ever since I am coming to the end of my Military Career and have to be tapped after my Physical Fitness Test to see how much body fat I have. Now when I joined the Military in 1985 I had 6% body fat and comparing that to today, well let's just say swimming with 42lbs of anything is not an issue because fat floats and for me to carry 42lbs of anything while swimming is nowhere near my maximum capacity. In fact compared when I first came in 42lbs would just be enough ballast to stabilize me in rough weather.

[NiceAft]

Dave,

I saw this video on a trisail. http://vimeo.com/10756689 . Wasn't your original question whether or not this would work while you are motoring

Ray