MAC 36

A forum for discussing topics relating to older MacGregor/Venture sailboats.
J1234
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Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:54 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 36

MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

Hello to one and all,

New 36 owner as well as new to the forum. :D
I didn't know where to introduce myself, so I hope I didn't break any rules by doing it here. My name is John. I'm on the other side of the pond in the USA.

Anyway, are there any Mac 36 owners here? I tried to search posts regarding the 36 so I can start to learn about her, but I must have done something wrong because it kept coming up zero. I have to demount her, make or buy a trailer which I have no idea where to look, then mount her back up after bringing her home and splash her...oh yes, everything else in between including learning to sail her since it's a move up for me from a docile trimaran.

It is hard to understand why there is soo little information about these trailable rockets. All I have is a manual and it is almost impossible to read because it looks like a 50th generation copy.

Anybody care to share what they know about the model?

Thanks
John
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grady
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Sailboat: MacGregor 26S
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Re: MAC 36

Post by grady »

They are cool looking and I want one! Sorry that is no help but I would contact Blue Water Yachts they are very knowledgeable about everything MacGregor.

http://www.bwyachts.com/

They even have a Mac Cat project.

http://www.bwyachts.com/Mac%2036%20Cat%20Project.htm
J1234
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Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:54 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

grady wrote:They are cool looking and I want one! Sorry that is no help but I would contact Blue Water Yachts they are very knowledgeable about everything MacGregor.

http://www.bwyachts.com/

They even have a Mac Cat project.

http://www.bwyachts.com/Mac%2036%20Cat%20Project.htm
Thanks Grady,
I already checked those out and they provide very litle if anything that is educational to my total and complete ignorance for these vessels. Hopefully, I won't do anything stupid like kill myself. :? Maybe I should try to establish some specifics for performance and stability mathematicaly? That may answer some questions like the ever important wind and sea operating envelope? I suppose I can take some measurements and calculate some ratios etc? Would there be any interest for this information by forum members or is the effort not worthwhile.

They are very nice looking designs. :) Hey, why don't we have one of these ----> :macm: for the 36? :(
Thanks
J1234
Deckhand
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:54 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36 Calculations

Post by J1234 »

Hello to all,

Wow…anybody? Nothing at all? :?

This gathering of information is going to be difficult.
Anyway, I had a friend take some measurements and used other known published measurements and dimensions to come up with some "close" estimated information about the MacGregor 36' in an effort to get a handle on the design and of course, to share it with the family if for nothing more than to have something to read. Remember these are close estimates because I don't have the exact data from the designer. I suppose I could provide the "metric" equivalent for my bretheren across the pond, but for now, it is imperial.

LOA: 35.5'
LWL: 34'
BWL: 2.25'
Bm of 1 Hull: 3.25'
OABm: 18'
T: 2' board up
Disp: 3000# empty
SA: 535 ft^2 jib/main
Powerplant is 15HP

Okay, based on the above, there are certain calculations which will result in solutions that can be used to interpret the design. I don't want to make this a physics/engineering lecture, so I will provide the results and my opinion on what it means. Please feel welcome to participate and contribute your own thoughts.

LWL Area: The waterline area is 93Ft^2 per hull. That is incredibly low for a 36' vessel and denotes extremely low drag!

LWLB Ratio: The waterline beam ratio is over 15 denoting long thin hulls that cut through the water smoothly thereby reducing wave making drag which translates to defeating the hull speed restriction of 1.34 times of the Lwl^.5. This vessel will have a very high velocity to length ratio which I haven't calculated yet but I suspect it will be well above 3 or even 4 times the Lwl^.5. Amazing.

PPI: The pounds per inch of immersion is 246# and it is very low denoting a design which is extremely sensitive to weight.

MTI: The moment to trim 1" is 331 pounds and it is very low denoting a design which will not tolerate weight at the ends very well.

Sinkage: The safe sinkage is 3.4", is very low and, provides an idea of how deep the hull can be loaded safely and provides a clue to maximum payload.

Payload: It appears that the safe payload based on PPI and sinkage is 1673#. This is extremely light and will probably mean a small cruise radius or limited cruise time without making port to provision. Speeds associated with the design will increase radius but the only way to increase provision is to consume less of it, so it is fair to say you can go further for the same provisions. Also, notice that the design has 5000# of flotation incorporated in the hulls and the sum of the displacement and payload do not exceed the flotation.

D/L Ratio: The displacement to length ratio is 34. This is an extreme lightship on steroids and enough is therefore said. Does anyone have some comparable figures for this ratio on other boats? I would be extremely interested in comparing it to other designs. I based the calculation on the light displacement of 3000#, so do not include payload in other designs. If payload is included, the ratio is 53 and that is still an extreme lightship.

SA/D Ratio: The sail area displacement ratio is 41 at 3000# and 31 with full payload. This means it can become overpowered quickly but there is lots of sail area for light wind work. An eye on the wind speed is a must because reefing will come early unless the windward hull is expected to fly and get unstuck.

SF: Stability wind speed to reef is based on full sail area and 3000# displacement and it is 14.3 and for the full payload it is 18 which means that both figures are comparable to formula 40 racing catamarans and will require the same if not greater attention from her skipper unless she looks better on her ear or turtled.

CR: Believe it or not, it has a high comfort ratio of 45. Obviously this is due to the large beam and long full ends reducing or eliminating hobby horsing. Who said it needs to be heavy to be comfortable? :)

RB: Reserve buoyancy is low at 4.5% and denotes a high floating platform with quick jerks if the bows are overpowered and get buried providing the skipper with a sign of caution to reef.

HS: Her hull speed is calculated at 16.9 knots, but I have to recalculate once I calculate the other parametric figures. I assume that it is this high because of a light displacement with incredibly large sail area and a high length to waterline beam ratio of over 15!

I hope that some of this information is useful. I will try to provide more of it as I research it and calculate it. I hope that at least this will solicit some input, comments or questions so we can belabor these findings a bit. I only ask that it be understood that these are close but by no means exact because of the lack of accurate data and these should only be considered theoretical estimates.

Thanks
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Catigale
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Re: MAC 36

Post by Catigale »

In 4-5 years on this board, I dont remember another Mac 36 owner posting so Im not sure if there are any fellow 36s here at all.....thanks for posting the theoretical stuff though.
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Graham Carr
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Re: MAC 36

Post by Graham Carr »

Is this PDF copy of the Manual any better? http://macgregorsailors.com/manuals/Mac36_Manual.pdf
J1234
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Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:54 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

Catigale wrote:In 4-5 years on this board, I dont remember another Mac 36 owner posting so Im not sure if there are any fellow 36s here at all.....thanks for posting the theoretical stuff though.
Hello,

Really? Well, that's not good.
You are quite welcome. I suppose it would be selfish for me to just stop and not do anything only because there isn't any other contributing force so I will finish what I started and hopefully it will be here for others to learn from or coroborate or correct.
J1234
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Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:54 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

Graham Carr wrote:Is this PDF copy of the Manual any better? http://macgregorsailors.com/manuals/Mac36_Manual.pdf
Ahoy there,

Hmmm, if my eyes were perfect I would probably say yes, but hey, thanks for the manual. I'll dowload it and replace the other after comparing them. The problem here is that the manual is more operational than specificational. For example, what size wire do you use for the forestay/backstay and shrouds? No I don't mean what someone else put up there, but the actual wire designed for those loads. what about turnbuckles and tangs? Pins? All these components are subjected to loads that we just can't take a wild guess at and decide.

Anyway, we are going to calculate all those loads and we are going to at the very least have a very close approximate result. The mathematics is sound and 2+2 will always be four as 3+1 wil be, but we don't have the exact data, so we need to always remember that common sense must be used even with high safety factors incorporated.
I did some more work.

Thanks
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Catigale
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Re: MAC 36

Post by Catigale »

I tried a search on Mac 36 but it was too generic and was rejected by the engine....Maybe some of the other oldtimers can scratch the memory banks and see if we can remember any other Mac 36s...???
J1234
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Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:54 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

Ahoy mates,

Again, and always, I will say that the mathematics is sound, and generally accepted enginering principles are used, but the lack of original design data creates a "theoretical" close approximation and only after using common sense should they be tested. In either event, I will state unequivocally, that this is strictly for educational purposes and I do not suggest or endorse use of any findings I may publish in this forum and to do so constitutes a sole risk for which I will not take any responsibility should it kill, maim, injure or inconvenience you or anyone else in any manner or form whatsoever. In fact, I will not even be responsible to apologize if you find that reading of this thread is a waste of your time. Now that we got that disclaimer sounded off and out of the way, lets go to work.

Feel welcome to request clarity on any information if demed necessary and I will do my best to provide it. I wil try to provide the information timely but be patient if it takes a little time since some of these calculations are tedious.

First, does anyone know what the midsection coefficient, prismatic coefficient and water plane coefficient might be for the 36? I can do magical things with this information. I have used approximations to generate the following findings. I may include some corrections from prior posts as well.

I: 44'
J: 15.5'
P: 38'
E: 13.9'
For some wild reason, these figures don't seem to add up visually. It seems like J should be longer as well as P should be taller when looking at the design.

Fore triangle CE: It is at a height of 18.8', for an area of 239ft^2

Mainsail CE: It is at a height of 21.2', for an area of 236ft^2

Combined CE: It is at a height of 20.13'.

Air draft: 47'
I will be able to provide more accurate figures once I find the CE on the sails by way of physically measuring them, but this is extremely close if not dead on.

The bridge deck clearance The height is 2.04'.

The LWL Area has now been more closely calculated to 89.87ft^2 - this is a correction.

BMT: Traverse stability is 72.75'

BML: Longitudinal Stability is 70.81'

WS: The wetted surface of the hulls is 186.4ft^2. Based on the B/T ratio, the wetted surface is actually considered high even though it is by every measure quite low. With a B/T ratio of 2 as opposed to 1.1 for this design, the 2 would have simulated a wetted area more closely resembling a parabola or in simpler terms, a wineglass/cylinder yielding the least wetted area.

For example, as an oversimplification and only to clarify it in my own mind, if we were to keep the waterline beam dimensions the same width to maintain the 15. 1 LWL/B ratio, then the beam at the waterline of 2' would mean that a B/T ratio of 2 would cause the draft to be designed to 1' deep. If we wanted to keep the draft 2' instead, then the beam would have to be 4' wide, thereby reducing the LWL/B ratio to 8.5. This makes her an outright dog and kills the designed wave making reduction incorporated into the hulls.

Design Category: All calculations thus far appear to reflect that she has been designed to category B as defined by the European Union. Her design wind speed is 32 knots. The following results are derived and the definition for category B is:

"OFFSHORE Category B", designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, Force 8 winds and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 meters may be experienced"

Link where more info can be found. http://www.ibinews.com/ibinews/ebb/tech_6.html

Actually I'm struck at the fact that the mathematics has her designed so closely to category A. I think that minor modifications (which we may get into later, wayyy later,) will make her category A capable. All this time, the design has been viewed as a coastal cruiser when deep down inside she has it in heroto head offshore. Granted she may not be offshore ready because it takes more than stability and capability to define that, but as a category B, she has a better chance of limping back to port than a coastal cruiser if caught in a blow. This finding is quite amazing.

Heeling Moment of sails: The 39890 ft#'s, is the moment used for rig design

Righting Moment of Design: 32,479 ft#'s

Max Heel Angle: The result is 0.0983 rad or if converted, 5.6 degrees and 7 degrees. It should be obvious that it will not be difficult to get the windward hull unstuck. The heel angle of 5.6 degrees is based on "lightly loaded and race ready" and the 7 degrees is based on full displacement. Still, it would behoove a skipper to always question the deceptive calm experienced from sailing at small angles of inclination since the hull will fly with just 7 degrees of heel.

Entrance angle: The bow entrance angle is 8.4 degrees, this could be way off and I would need to measure it to know for certain. I have seen the 36 in action and the bows did not appear to penetrate wet so I suspect that the angle is too shallow and would probably be a lot closer to 11 degrees.

Height of 1 Hull: The height is 4.3' but this will also be measured and made final.
Foot print weight: She has 6.76# ft^2 and this wil be used to estimate the cost to build a new Mac 36 today. For this study, it can be said that she is extremely light per ft^2 compared to other catamarans.

Hull Volume: 491ft^3 and it is the entire hull perimeter without any internal accommodation included. This is considered in my mind quite cramped. To put this in perspective, as a measure of a cube, you must be prepared to exist in a cube that is 7.87ft^3. It can be done because there is enough room for 2 people to lay comfortably and stretch out to take the crook out of your back, but now take away 40 cubic feet of flotation and another 5 cubic feet of accommodation and restrict the width and height and it's a whole other picture.

Hull Beam to Length: This calculates to 9.2%

Hull Height to Length: This calculates to 12%

Windage: This calculates to 6.4% and it is excellent! Catamarans are not known for their pointing ability, but with a deep board and this kind of windage, she should be inside of 10 degrees to mono hull pointing angles, although she may then also suffer mono hull speeds for pointing so high.

Draft to Height: This calculates to 47%

LWL/Water plane Area: This calculates to 39.5%

LCB: This calculates to 56.3% aft

VCB/Draft: This calculates to 47.5%

LCF: This calculates to 57.1% aft

CLA: This calculates to 47.5% aft

Deck Clearance : This calculates to 6% of LWL. This is actually the bare minimum vertical distance that should be taken for offshore work because the slamming on the bridge deck would be intolerable and may cause structural concerns, but, it is genius when there is no bridge deck and only netting exists and all the windage can be eliminated.

Leed: This is 7.6% of the LWL for a distance of 2.6'. This also is a common percentage. Does any owner know if there is a lot of weather helm on the design when operating at a V/L speed greater than 2.44? If the helm is balanced, then I would suspect that the figure should be smaller, but I will know for certain when I get exact measurements.

Length/Draft: This calculates to 17 and it is good.

SLR: The speed to length ratio is 1.9 and provides a true representation of expected V/L speeds averaged over a 24 period. It turns out from GPS readings and other Bar room tall tales of incredible speeds, that the design does in fact exceed 2 and 3 times LWL^0.5, but, according to the calculations, the design is fixed at 1.9 times LWL^0.5. It may be conservative and there are other accepted methods for calculations, but for now, lets try to keep the grand tall tale of the huge fish that got away at the bar. :)

Okay. I'll calculate some more when I get a chance. The search engines are completely devoid of information and it apears that it will all be left to me.

So which head chief can make one of these ----> :macm: for the 36 so I can have one since I apear to be the only one?

Thanks for reading.
J1234
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Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

Catigale wrote:I tried a search on Mac 36 but it was too generic and was rejected by the engine....Maybe some of the other oldtimers can scratch the memory banks and see if we can remember any other Mac 36s...???
I know. Thanks for the effort.

Stick around. I don't think you will be dissappointed after you see all the information that can be produced from a string and a stick. 8) Shoot, it may be that the design may have been "designed" by the time we are done with her.

Gotta run
SkiDeep2001
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Re: MAC 36

Post by SkiDeep2001 »

Jeez J1234, TMI, made my head hurt, :wink: just go sailing, learn as you go and stay out of the nasty weather. :P :wink: Rob 8)
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pokerrick1
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Re: MAC 36

Post by pokerrick1 »

I urge you to contact Mike Inmon at the factory (you can PM him from this forum) - - - he has been around MacGregors for a long time and there isn't much he doesn't know about all the boats Roger made (besides, nowadays, he is often standing beside Roger - - -and what better source than that - - - Roger would probably be glad to hear there is still another one around?)

Rick
J1234
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Sailboat: MacGregor 36

Re: MAC 36

Post by J1234 »

pokerrick1 wrote:I urge you to contact Mike Inmon at the factory (you can PM him from this forum) - - - he has been around MacGregors for a long time and there isn't much he doesn't know about all the boats Roger made (besides, nowadays, he is often standing beside Roger - - -and what better source than that - - - Roger would probably be glad to hear there is still another one around?)Rick
Hello Rick,

OMG! That is the best news I have yet to have heard so far.
What is Mike Inmon's user name?
I have been in contact with a very kind staff at the factory and she has intimated that she would make an efort to get me some information...whatever she has lying around here or there...but that' fine with me. How do I do the PM thingie? :?

I can't believe that the information available for the design and now as you allude to the absence of the vessel itself is so prevalent. Unbelievable. I don't even know how many we're made.

Thanks again for the heads up and if anyone hears from Mr. Inmon, please, please ask him to contact me at his convenience.

Thanks
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hart
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Re: MAC 36

Post by hart »

I have a friend named steve that owns a 36. It's way cool! Anyway he built his own trailer and has been fixing her up. I emailed him a link to this thread. Maybe he'll have some helpful advice for you.
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