additional info.....
1) You need to contact Evinrude directly on the longshaft "25" leg, by the measurements they provided me.. it is too long for the transom of the macX, even though the saltwater wersion has the gearing I want. The 20" puts the ventplate within 1" of the bottom of the boat
2) The Etec does not burn much more fuel. The Nissan/tohatsu and Etec at low and <4000 rpm operation are almost indistinguishable from each other the lowest of the two smokes, and lower than most 4 pokes.... and on boat testing against four strokes shows less than 5% difference.. (in some cases better than Suzi and Handy) at some RPMs This is today, what is on the dealer shelves. And with the different gear ratios and different props on each engine... on the water testing is probably the only way to determine which prop/engine/boat weight combination is measureable superior.
3) The etec 90 is in its second year now. the 05 is the second year ( except for a few samples in the smaller horsepowers than some claim to have been 03 pre production), that is what is being delivered, the sail version (25" may actually be in its first year of delivery), but the power head has been out.
4) The Etec is a family of engines. those pistons/cyliinders are common between the family members from I believe 40 hp up through the 225....the vary the number of cylinders and cranks for different hps, injectors are the same all the way up...
5) Noise, Becasue of the variances in the measured locations and equipment, hulls and transoms.... right now there has been no reproducible on the water test of 2 different engines on the mac instrumented the same. (and I have been watching since this is a high interest for me) Because of that, it is extremely difficult to determine the relative ranking between engines and noise levels.. And yes I love how quiet the handy and suzi are....... Dont make me go out and make a bel meter.... But If I do, you can be sure it will be mounted at head level on top the helm seat.
6) Environmental friendliness..... E-tec is the lowest emissions.....lower even than the available four strokes at this time.
Now if they only made a short shaft etec with the 2.25:1 gearing, and a merc bigfoot bottom.....
and Rolf......... 28 kts.????
Question: Big foot 60 four stroke vs Tohatsu 70 Tldi
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waternwaves
- Admiral
- Posts: 1499
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:18 pm
- Location: X less in North Puget Sound -have to sail other boats for a while
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NYharleyrider
- Deckhand
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:57 am
- Location: Rochester, NY 05 26M, 70 HP TLDI
- Contact:
Wow... So many responses and a lot of conversation and I do appreciate everyone's input, but we sort of deviated from my question and so far there doesn't seem to be a clear winner... I mean answer. 
There is however a lot of talk about the the merits of the 90 hp and the planing ability of the Mac Hull. For those of you saying for the weight to HP ratio and the extra money I might as well move up to a 90 hp TLDI. You are right, but that's not one of my options.
For the money - these are my two choices:
2002 Merc Big Foot Four Stroke 60 hp with EFI no warranty with prop and controls delivered $4000.00
Brand New 2004 (Left over never used - still in box) Tohatsu 70 hp TLDI with four year warranty prop and controls delivered $5100.00
For the money I don't think I'll find better deals on either motor, so of the these two which would you pick and why...
Please note, I have no experience with Mac's (never even sailed on one) or motors bigger than 9.9 hp and I largely made my decision to purchase the 05 M based upon how much you all seem to love your X and M's
I do value the opinion of you experienced Mac owners.
Time is running out and I do need to make a decision later today.
Thanks all,
Brian.
There is however a lot of talk about the the merits of the 90 hp and the planing ability of the Mac Hull. For those of you saying for the weight to HP ratio and the extra money I might as well move up to a 90 hp TLDI. You are right, but that's not one of my options.
For the money - these are my two choices:
2002 Merc Big Foot Four Stroke 60 hp with EFI no warranty with prop and controls delivered $4000.00
Brand New 2004 (Left over never used - still in box) Tohatsu 70 hp TLDI with four year warranty prop and controls delivered $5100.00
For the money I don't think I'll find better deals on either motor, so of the these two which would you pick and why...
Please note, I have no experience with Mac's (never even sailed on one) or motors bigger than 9.9 hp and I largely made my decision to purchase the 05 M based upon how much you all seem to love your X and M's
I do value the opinion of you experienced Mac owners.
Time is running out and I do need to make a decision later today.
Thanks all,
Brian.
Mercury Bigfoot 60 vs. Tohatsu Bigfoot 70
Since the Tohatsu 70 hp is listed on its web page with a 2.3:1 gear ratio, it is effectively the same "bigfoot" gear ratio as the Merc 60.
..
The TLDI 70 is little brother to the TLDI 90, so there is a lot of motor there not working all that hard for its size. So it is heavier. In portable outboards the very light ones are the raspy noisy ones, while the heavier portables reward your extra carying effot with smother quieter operation, often the lighter portables require 360 steering for lack of reverese, maybe the TLDI has some bells and whistles not available on the Merc?
..
The Mercury 60 is the biggest brother of the Bigfoot 40, 50, 60 tripples. Therefore it will be a hard working smaller engine. The Bigfoot in a Merc means they took a small powerhead (engine) and bolted it onto a large lower unit to get the beefy support needed for the larger prop.
..
Will the TLDI working less hard for its size sound better or last longer for you? That is the question.
..
Compare the specs carefully, maybe one of these motors has more battery charging ability at lower RPMs, maybe one has a better mounting bracket to hold it to the transom so it has less need to be braced while on the trailer. Maybe you prefer the color or dimensions of one over the other, how much space will each take up and how will it look on your Mac26? It sounds like your same dealer has both motors, ask the mechanics there to rate each of the outboards for how well they hold up on the inside. Maybe one can be rope started and the other cannot, both would be difficult because they are very big for rope starting, but still this could be a consideration. Have a look at the maintenance schedule for each and see if one works better for your wallet or your time.
..
..
P.S. the nice feature of having "too much" power is being able to go as fast as you want while not having to run the motor wide open allowing a much quieter cruise using only 90hp of the 140 hp on the Suzuki. For some this will be worth the weight and cost of the 140.
..
The TLDI 70 is little brother to the TLDI 90, so there is a lot of motor there not working all that hard for its size. So it is heavier. In portable outboards the very light ones are the raspy noisy ones, while the heavier portables reward your extra carying effot with smother quieter operation, often the lighter portables require 360 steering for lack of reverese, maybe the TLDI has some bells and whistles not available on the Merc?
..
The Mercury 60 is the biggest brother of the Bigfoot 40, 50, 60 tripples. Therefore it will be a hard working smaller engine. The Bigfoot in a Merc means they took a small powerhead (engine) and bolted it onto a large lower unit to get the beefy support needed for the larger prop.
..
Will the TLDI working less hard for its size sound better or last longer for you? That is the question.
..
Compare the specs carefully, maybe one of these motors has more battery charging ability at lower RPMs, maybe one has a better mounting bracket to hold it to the transom so it has less need to be braced while on the trailer. Maybe you prefer the color or dimensions of one over the other, how much space will each take up and how will it look on your Mac26? It sounds like your same dealer has both motors, ask the mechanics there to rate each of the outboards for how well they hold up on the inside. Maybe one can be rope started and the other cannot, both would be difficult because they are very big for rope starting, but still this could be a consideration. Have a look at the maintenance schedule for each and see if one works better for your wallet or your time.
..
..
P.S. the nice feature of having "too much" power is being able to go as fast as you want while not having to run the motor wide open allowing a much quieter cruise using only 90hp of the 140 hp on the Suzuki. For some this will be worth the weight and cost of the 140.
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craiglaforce
- Captain
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:30 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Houston, Tx
If it was me I would pick the Tohatsu 70. I think the powerhead is more narrow for boarding, will probably also tilt up easier, plus it has the warrantee (which you will probably never use cause Tohatsu's are super reliable) and is new so there is no question about why the previous owner sold it, and 10 extra ponies. How's that for a run-on sentence? And no oil changes. Seems like a slam dunk. The only reason everyone is drooling over the Tohatsu 90 is because it seems to be the optimal motor for the boat. 28 knots with good gas mileage sounds amazing when I can't get over 14 mph with my 50 screaming.
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Catigale
- Site Admin
- Posts: 10421
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:59 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Admiral .............Catigale 2002X.......Lots of Harpoon Hobie 16 Skiffs....Island 17
- Contact:
In my book (and I like my Merc 50 HP BF) the 1150 premium for four years of warranty would tip me to the Tohatsu.Now the difference between the used Big Foot vs the new TLDI is $1150.00 and the TLDI offers a four year warranty too.
Of course, NYHR, why not go back to the Merc offer and ask for $3000?
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Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
- Admiral
- Posts: 2043
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:36 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Tampa, Florida 2000 Mercury BigFoot 50HP 4-Stroke on 26X hull# 3575.B000
Brian, you will note that I started a new thread so as not to keep hijacking yours (plus, it was Duane who started it this time anyway 
).
IF the things being said about fuel economy, smoke, and noise are true about these TLDI's, I would probably pick the 70 in your position too. But that is still a big IF IMO and I would want to see it for myself. Prop size is going to be a negative, but there are more than enough positives to counter the balance (ie, warranty, more power, etc.) IMO. Of course, I have big foot and am very happy with it...the TLDI is a much more unknown quantity, so perhaps there is more risk of the unknown there.
And btw, those do sound like excellent prices you are getting there...although personally, I would fork out more money for the 90 myself.
P.S. Craig, I exceeded 19mph the other day with my whole family of 6 aboard (I have a 50BF). There must be something wrong with your setup.
). IF the things being said about fuel economy, smoke, and noise are true about these TLDI's, I would probably pick the 70 in your position too. But that is still a big IF IMO and I would want to see it for myself. Prop size is going to be a negative, but there are more than enough positives to counter the balance (ie, warranty, more power, etc.) IMO. Of course, I have big foot and am very happy with it...the TLDI is a much more unknown quantity, so perhaps there is more risk of the unknown there.
And btw, those do sound like excellent prices you are getting there...although personally, I would fork out more money for the 90 myself.
P.S. Craig, I exceeded 19mph the other day with my whole family of 6 aboard (I have a 50BF). There must be something wrong with your setup.
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NYharleyrider
- Deckhand
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:57 am
- Location: Rochester, NY 05 26M, 70 HP TLDI
- Contact:
Dimitri,
No worries. You and Duane sure make for interesting side conversation, but thank you for your consideration.
Speaking of prop size... What size are you running on your Big Foot.
Tohatsu has two props available that I think would work quite nicely with the M26.
13.6 x 12.4 and 14 x 9.4
According to Moe... In previous posts he's mentioned the 14x9 for for the Big Foot would be the best choice.
That being the case I imagine the 14x9.4 on the 70 TLDI would rival the big foot in many ways. Moe... what are your thoughts.
No worries. You and Duane sure make for interesting side conversation, but thank you for your consideration.
Speaking of prop size... What size are you running on your Big Foot.
Tohatsu has two props available that I think would work quite nicely with the M26.
13.6 x 12.4 and 14 x 9.4
According to Moe... In previous posts he's mentioned the 14x9 for for the Big Foot would be the best choice.
That being the case I imagine the 14x9.4 on the 70 TLDI would rival the big foot in many ways. Moe... what are your thoughts.
My thoughts are that the TLDI and BigFoot are roughly equivalent in terms of lower unit capability, i.e. probably the same gear ratio, and obviously, the same prop diameter capability.
The TLDI has greater displacement (1267 vs 996cc) and twice as many power strokes per revolution. OTOH, a two-stroke typically doesn't have as high a cylinder fill, and has a lower compression ratio. If we make the assumption that the TLDI's horsepower peak is halfway through it's maximum RPM range, at 5500 rpm, that 70HP translates to 66.8 ft-lbs of torque. For the BigFoot's 60HP at 5750 rpm, that's 54 ft-lbs of torque. It is reasonable to assume that the advantage is the case throughout the entire rpm range, but the advantage may vary according to tuning.
My recommendation for a 9" prop on the 60HP BigFoot on the M is because it is a heavier boat, and its deeper V has less lift and more wetted surface than the X. That appears to create more drag than the reduction attributed to the elimination of the Xs centerboard slot, which isn't as much of a factor when the board is retracted. My recommendation also considers that the 60HP is exactly the same motor as the 40 and 50 HP BigFoots, with the sole exception of the Electronic Control Module (I've compared component part numbers).
As far as comparing the props, the 9.4" is greater than 9" by about the same percentage as the BigFoot 5750 HP peak RPM is greater than (the assumed) 5500 HP peak RPM of the TLDI. So mechanically, they're suited well to that.
My only point of concern would be the additiional 10HP's possibility of overrevving the motor when lightly loaded (and this can be limited by throttle). The BigFoot has a two-stage rev limiter, so you can't hurt it by overreving. Most engines with electronic ignition, much less fuel injection, have had rev limiters for the last 20 years or so. However, given the TLDI's less sophisticated injection system (i.e. no altitude compensation), I'd feel better with the 9.4" prop if I knew for sure it has a rev-limiter. Perhaps someone who owns one of the TLDIs could chime in here about that.
I REALLY like injected four-strokes, but have experienced a 50HP E-TEC and found it to have been impressive. It seemed to me to be every bit as quiet, smoke-free, and smooth at low rpm, as my BigFoot, but it did have that smell of burned oil, though nowhere nearly as strong as a carbureted two-stroke. While I have no experience with the Tohatsu, I don't believe it is quite as technologically good as the E-TEC, and that may be borne out by the 3-star vs 2-star emissions ratings. I AM concerned about no proven track record with the E-TEC, as well as the Bombardier Recreational Product's long-term financial outlook.
So there ya have it. I don't believe the 60HP BigFoot, on an M, will be much, if any, faster than a 50HP BigFoot on an X. I DO believe the 70HP will be slightly faster, and from the torque numbers, slightly better at towing a tube or pulling a skier.
If you are interested in any dimensions of the BigFoot and TLDI cowlings, I would be glad to take the BigFoot ones for you.
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Moe
The TLDI has greater displacement (1267 vs 996cc) and twice as many power strokes per revolution. OTOH, a two-stroke typically doesn't have as high a cylinder fill, and has a lower compression ratio. If we make the assumption that the TLDI's horsepower peak is halfway through it's maximum RPM range, at 5500 rpm, that 70HP translates to 66.8 ft-lbs of torque. For the BigFoot's 60HP at 5750 rpm, that's 54 ft-lbs of torque. It is reasonable to assume that the advantage is the case throughout the entire rpm range, but the advantage may vary according to tuning.
My recommendation for a 9" prop on the 60HP BigFoot on the M is because it is a heavier boat, and its deeper V has less lift and more wetted surface than the X. That appears to create more drag than the reduction attributed to the elimination of the Xs centerboard slot, which isn't as much of a factor when the board is retracted. My recommendation also considers that the 60HP is exactly the same motor as the 40 and 50 HP BigFoots, with the sole exception of the Electronic Control Module (I've compared component part numbers).
As far as comparing the props, the 9.4" is greater than 9" by about the same percentage as the BigFoot 5750 HP peak RPM is greater than (the assumed) 5500 HP peak RPM of the TLDI. So mechanically, they're suited well to that.
My only point of concern would be the additiional 10HP's possibility of overrevving the motor when lightly loaded (and this can be limited by throttle). The BigFoot has a two-stage rev limiter, so you can't hurt it by overreving. Most engines with electronic ignition, much less fuel injection, have had rev limiters for the last 20 years or so. However, given the TLDI's less sophisticated injection system (i.e. no altitude compensation), I'd feel better with the 9.4" prop if I knew for sure it has a rev-limiter. Perhaps someone who owns one of the TLDIs could chime in here about that.
I REALLY like injected four-strokes, but have experienced a 50HP E-TEC and found it to have been impressive. It seemed to me to be every bit as quiet, smoke-free, and smooth at low rpm, as my BigFoot, but it did have that smell of burned oil, though nowhere nearly as strong as a carbureted two-stroke. While I have no experience with the Tohatsu, I don't believe it is quite as technologically good as the E-TEC, and that may be borne out by the 3-star vs 2-star emissions ratings. I AM concerned about no proven track record with the E-TEC, as well as the Bombardier Recreational Product's long-term financial outlook.
So there ya have it. I don't believe the 60HP BigFoot, on an M, will be much, if any, faster than a 50HP BigFoot on an X. I DO believe the 70HP will be slightly faster, and from the torque numbers, slightly better at towing a tube or pulling a skier.
If you are interested in any dimensions of the BigFoot and TLDI cowlings, I would be glad to take the BigFoot ones for you.
--
Moe
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Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
- Admiral
- Posts: 2043
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:36 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Tampa, Florida 2000 Mercury BigFoot 50HP 4-Stroke on 26X hull# 3575.B000
I run a 14X10 which I believe is the perfect prop for my 2000 26X 50HP BF....but the 26M is a bit heavier so its not apples to apples. I have only been overpropped one time and that is when I had full ballast and 7 people aboard. 99% of the time it is perfect. If you go with an under pitched prop for your HP, you are going to sacrifice top end speed for better performance at slower speeds with a heavy load.What size are you running on your Big Foot.
Another point worth mentioning is that my understanding is that the bigfoot was totally redesigned in 2001 when it went to EFI. Perhaps a whole new powerhead. In my 2000 shop manual, there is no mention of a 60HP BF, only 40 and 50.
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Roy B. Highland
- Deckhand
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:15 pm
- Location: Central Coast California 1997X
motor choice
I've got a Merc 60 hpEFI 4 stroke and love it. It has the grunt to move my "X" at over 20mph but at normal cruise speed gets double the milage over my old 50 HP 2 stroke.
I think the big thing to consider is the 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke.
After 2005 only four stroke motors will be alloed on any lake in California. (Ocean OK for 2 strokers)
I believe the closing of inland lakes and waters for 2 strokes will spread to most of the states. If you plan to only sail on salt water.....it doesn't matter. If you plan to use lakes.........the 4 stroker is the way to go.
Roy "Salty Dog" Highland
I think the big thing to consider is the 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke.
After 2005 only four stroke motors will be alloed on any lake in California. (Ocean OK for 2 strokers)
I believe the closing of inland lakes and waters for 2 strokes will spread to most of the states. If you plan to only sail on salt water.....it doesn't matter. If you plan to use lakes.........the 4 stroker is the way to go.
Roy "Salty Dog" Highland
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craiglaforce
- Captain
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:30 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Houston, Tx
Thanks Dimitri,
I think I might have finally found the problem on mine. Cleaned out some little black bits of junk out of 2 of the 3 carbs when winterizing this year. This was the first time I opened the bowl drains and shot some carb cleaner in the hole with a straw. I was amazed how much debris came out. The motor was 2 years old when I bought the boat and it was set up with lots of problems. (air leak into the fuel fittings at the top of the tanks, waay too much spark advance, no fuel filter on the hoses, and apparently a nice load of junk in the carb bowls). I might take a look at dropping the bowls to really clean them thoroughly if I can figure out how to do it, but it seems to be running pretty well now, (finally). Maybe I will see higher speeds with it next year.
I think I might have finally found the problem on mine. Cleaned out some little black bits of junk out of 2 of the 3 carbs when winterizing this year. This was the first time I opened the bowl drains and shot some carb cleaner in the hole with a straw. I was amazed how much debris came out. The motor was 2 years old when I bought the boat and it was set up with lots of problems. (air leak into the fuel fittings at the top of the tanks, waay too much spark advance, no fuel filter on the hoses, and apparently a nice load of junk in the carb bowls). I might take a look at dropping the bowls to really clean them thoroughly if I can figure out how to do it, but it seems to be running pretty well now, (finally). Maybe I will see higher speeds with it next year.
Harley,
Probably too late, but believe me, at least a 90 is way to go. You will spend much more later when you do decide to step up and take a 50% hit trying to unload your underpowered motor, like I am. I know most of us Mackies (new word) are cheap, but why not spend anothe 2 grand and get a powersailor with performance on par with "real" $50,000 powerboats (make that 75 grand if you're going to compare accomodations)?
If these 2 are your only options, I do find the extra 100 pounds (315 total) really help balance and steady the boat with the mast up. I know what everyone is thinking -- I can add 100 pounds in gas and gear, which of course I do as well. But there is something about the extra weight hanging dead off the back which really stabalizes the boat... a very pleasant surprise for me and maybe reason enuff to go with heavier tohat 70.
Also the 28 knots I did was in great conditions with minimal gear and nobody else on board. I found that 4000 rpms and 24 mph is th most practical cruising speed when conditions are still good. Boat rides like a dream there with great gas mileage and there is plenty of speed burst room to spare.
Rolf
Probably too late, but believe me, at least a 90 is way to go. You will spend much more later when you do decide to step up and take a 50% hit trying to unload your underpowered motor, like I am. I know most of us Mackies (new word) are cheap, but why not spend anothe 2 grand and get a powersailor with performance on par with "real" $50,000 powerboats (make that 75 grand if you're going to compare accomodations)?
If these 2 are your only options, I do find the extra 100 pounds (315 total) really help balance and steady the boat with the mast up. I know what everyone is thinking -- I can add 100 pounds in gas and gear, which of course I do as well. But there is something about the extra weight hanging dead off the back which really stabalizes the boat... a very pleasant surprise for me and maybe reason enuff to go with heavier tohat 70.
Also the 28 knots I did was in great conditions with minimal gear and nobody else on board. I found that 4000 rpms and 24 mph is th most practical cruising speed when conditions are still good. Boat rides like a dream there with great gas mileage and there is plenty of speed burst room to spare.
Rolf
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Frank C
There are a couple of very valuable power-choice criteria defined in this thread.
Overall power: The Mac can be made to perform much more closely to traditional powerboats by going with 90 hp, or more. No choice in the 50 to 70 hp range will deliver those last few foot-pounds to break out from the 20 mph plateau.
Mid-range power: Among the 50-to-70 hp choices, I'd always choose a 14" prop for pushing power, and EFI for long-term reliablilty. Either the BF60 or the TLDI-70 will deliver gobs of comfortable mid-range cruising, 12 to 16 mph, but they'll strain when holding 20+ mph. If performance in that mid-range is a priority, I think decibels would be an important consideration.
Both of Harley's choices will deliver similar (and marginal) performance at WOT. Neither will really put the stern up on the surface like my friend's ski-boat.
Harley's choice is not power related, probably not economy related either. It's simply a matter of choosing new or used, warranty or not, 2-stroke or 4-stroke ... and I'd suggest there's not a clearly objective answer - it's primarily subjective.
Overall power: The Mac can be made to perform much more closely to traditional powerboats by going with 90 hp, or more. No choice in the 50 to 70 hp range will deliver those last few foot-pounds to break out from the 20 mph plateau.
Mid-range power: Among the 50-to-70 hp choices, I'd always choose a 14" prop for pushing power, and EFI for long-term reliablilty. Either the BF60 or the TLDI-70 will deliver gobs of comfortable mid-range cruising, 12 to 16 mph, but they'll strain when holding 20+ mph. If performance in that mid-range is a priority, I think decibels would be an important consideration.
Both of Harley's choices will deliver similar (and marginal) performance at WOT. Neither will really put the stern up on the surface like my friend's ski-boat.
Harley's choice is not power related, probably not economy related either. It's simply a matter of choosing new or used, warranty or not, 2-stroke or 4-stroke ... and I'd suggest there's not a clearly objective answer - it's primarily subjective.
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Jack O'Brien
- Captain
- Posts: 564
- Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:28 pm
- Location: West Palm Beach, Florida, 2000X, Gostosa III
Billy
Billy wrote:
"After that we can try the 150/spinnaker combination in 20+ mph winds."
Is that where the name "XX" (Double Cross) came from?
Seriously, please start a new thread and tell more about this. Or email me. Do you use a pole? A bowsprit? A Rosary?
Jack
"After that we can try the 150/spinnaker combination in 20+ mph winds."
Is that where the name "XX" (Double Cross) came from?
Seriously, please start a new thread and tell more about this. Or email me. Do you use a pole? A bowsprit? A Rosary?
Jack
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Terry Chiccino
- Chief Steward
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:27 pm
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Santa Cruz, CA., '02x,w/'09 Honda,efi
Roy B. Highland, Where did you get your information on no more two smokes after 2005? I checked with the authorities at Lake Tahoe prior to purchasing my Nissan TLDI 50 and they told me that motor was good to go as long as it had the sticker and the documentation. If what your saying is true then I think it's time to put the Nissan up for sale!