The Bomb exploded on my Motor (a bit long)

[Boblee]

ROTFLMAO LEON
They must be taught this at the dealership indoctrination

My Mac dealer (across the marina from the mechanic) has also taken an interest in this as well as they claim that mine is the first Etec to have this problem

Mine said the same and so did the bloke in Darwin and Bowen but after a few questions it became apparent it was possibly not common but something they needed to keep quite or FOB the customer off on due to lack of support from BRP.
Another thing I was told was that the transition from vapour to spray can cause a problem but that was at the wrong rpm range, was also told by running it consistently at 1200-2000 rpm it caused the plugs to foul (my fault again) but the mech in Darwin said they had boats in an indigenous area that did thousands of hours prohibited from doing over 1500rpm with no problems LOL
Yes they thankfully and finally put a new powerhead on mine but I still don't know what the original problem was, I have a couple of ideas but the new powerhead (2010 mod) performed well with little or any problems except at the start but after changing to the spare prop to keep the WOT rpm below 5000 rpm it ran sweetly and this suited me as this prop gives way more top speed especially unloaded and with the dinghy off we possibly did 80-100 hrs with it but mostly at about 1200-2000 rpm.
I am hoping it will be ok this year as we will be finally heading (or again) to the Kimberlies and it is not a place you want to be without or with unreliable power (good but unreliable winds and 5-10 m tides) there is sheltered spots with 800 islands but picking beaching and anchoring spots with tide currents around the islands and rocky bottoms could be hairy which besides loss of time was one of the reasons I gave it a miss last year.
If the motor plays up this year you will hear me over there without any electronic assistance trust me

[1st Sail]

I spoke with two dealers today. Overall I think we are essentially screwed.
Dealer 1 (larger dealer in the area)- I related my own personal issue of intermitant ignition miss fire between 3-4K rpm. I informed him I that I understood there is a cross over with regard to fuel delivery etc. His reply was to just replace the plugs. I asked about indexing...Nah won't make any difference.

Dealer2 (small dealer) His comment was 'It is what it is". Further comments..."There is a cross over in fuel delivery between 3-4k rpm. The zone is approx 400-600 rpm where the software goes from a hetergenous mixing system to stratified charge based metering. With approx. 80 hrs on my engine he did not think the plugs were a factor. Plugs are indexed at the factory and are a must."

Where does that leave us mortals. I think we have a B1 here. Seems like I recall a show on the History channel about the B1. They described the shape as geometrically simplistic to the eye. But under the skin not an airplane that you could fly with conventional mechanical controls. Add complex software control systems and you have an incredible flying machine.

After reading the narrative I posted eariler I get the feeling we have a partial B1... simle, clean, efficient design, however like the B1 you need software to make it fly (run). Reading the process flow description it appears most of the critical functions relate to sensor control systems tied to software. If this engine type is deficient in fault code generation then we are toast. I think the complexity of the software and system controls exceed the understanding the those responsible for maintenance and diagnostics. If we have software driven controls systems that don't talk back then debugging may replacing parts until you get it.

Are there any process flow diagnostics data or information available to the dealers? In the case of my Etec 50 it does the same stupid process up to 6000 times a minute.

I would like to see a board survey regarding how many are experiencing ignition problems.

[1st Sail]

Leon,

Sorry I couldn't get more information. Here's a curious thought. I got a recall notice on my Audi Allroad. Specifically the recall is due to not meeting emission standards due to (guess what) ignition problems. Perhaps we are seeking help from the wrong company. EPA Inc. may be interested to know that persistant intermitant ignition failure means unburned fuel. Clean water anyone? Perhaps the clean burning Etec is not as clean burning as we/they (EPA) would like to think.

I like this engine. It's small, light weight and puts out a lot of torque. Operating maintenance is near ZERO. I hope BRC makes the effort.

[Kelly Hanson East]

The auto industry does have extended emission control warranties although I'm not sure if this is due to a mandate from the EPA or market forces

one thing is for certain, the EPA has clout and if their rating is in question it will force them to deal with the issue

[delevi]

Good stuff regarding the EPA. I'm certain when the missfires happen, the engine isn't "clean burning." I did some reading on someone's blog (wish I could remember which) where the guy was a big critic of Evinrude and all their lofty claims. He threw out some mechanical information which I couldn't fully understand. From what I gathered, Evinrude is attempting to do something to the way fuel is burned as many automakers attempted and failed miserably in the past. According to this guy, it's disaster waiting to happen, just like the predecessor to the Etec (Ficht.) In turn, the engines would not be clean burning at all, among having other issues. Again, I'm paraphrasing 3rd party information I didn't fully understand. Perhaps the mechanics among us can chime in on this.

on edit: Just remembered that I have an old-time client who works for the EPA. I wonder if I should call him regarding this. Not sure if I want to open this can of worms.

Leon

[Kelly Hanson East]

Leon - in CA the ETEC has a 4 year warranty on certain emission control stuff - did you document your problem possibly before the warranty was up??

[Craig LaForce]

I am late suggesting this, and the odds are it will not help, but have you checked the iboats.com motor forums to see if they discuss the problem?


http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php ... =etec+miss

[bscott]

Tagging along on Craig's post, go to www.etecownersgroup.com They seem to have excellent tech info.

BCB

[Boblee]

Thanks for that link bscott, went to the site and asked a question about propping but if Leon can start something on his I will certainly chime in as there doesn't seem to be anything exactly the same but many similar.
The one thing that is a constant is bad service and backup from BRP and not neccesarily dealers although there appears to be a huge dicrepancy with training.

[bscott]

Loen/Boblee

Go to http://www.etecownersgroup.com then go to the E-tec I-2 forum under "06 60HP Misses Need Advice" There are a few fixes for the problems re: thermostat contamination, base gasket leak, spark plug indexing, etc.

I am not having your problems but I am not able to get the 5,500-5,700 rpms which seem to be the benchmark. First thing I did was raised my cavitation plate as close to level with the bottom but could not get more than 5,200. I just paid a visit to our local prop repair guy and he cannot re-prop lower than 14-9 (we run at 8,000') but he said the Hydrus prop (which I have) looses about 300/350 rpm for any given prop pitch so I am now going to a standard OEM 14-9 which should get me to at least 5.600. One of the posters on the E-tec service forum said to use a swept back SST prop in place of the Hydrus (I am told the stock OEM prop is also swept back).

Apparently it is extremely important that the engine operates at a certain temp--they have had trouble in cold water with the thermostat. Also, the software senses lugging all along the rpm range and will change the oiling and mixture to compensate--thus it is imperative that the engine obtain the 5,500/5,700 benchmark.

I ride race tuned 2 stroke BRP Rotax powered Ski Doo snow mobiles and we index our plug and tune the clutching within 100 rpm of OEM spec. Otherwise we encounter many more high cost engine problems than a rough mid range. BRP is not perfect but they are no worse than others we deal with. BTW, some dealers do NOT have the latest diagnostic software and running the engine with the hood off in a tank sometimes masks the problem.

Bob

[waternwaves]

again,

with this economy, all dealers have slacked off on training or have fewer staff. It is expensive.

What you describe is a dealer problem.

[blue angel]

I got a ride on a river john boat with a 40 etec and a jet drive last week and the thing wheezed and sputered, but evidently it was even worse before serveral trips to dealer. betweeen that and fuel economy and few dealers, I would stick with 4 strokes. you can get etecs pretty cheap in s florida though, same areas where 80% of the marine motors are yamahas. they have left over etec models from several years back dirt cheap, but I will still go with more reliable brand, just my 2 cents

[Boblee]

Bob
Yeah went on there and posted under props and lugging as that has been on my mind after a much taller prop was suggested.
I don't actually have a miss now since the powerhead was changed and then changed the prop but it would be interesting to see what they say about Leons miss as it is current.
We had/have the Hydrus prop and it does give the correct? revs at heavy loads and I don't want to use stt as we do encounter plenty of rocks and stumps etc but our 13.75 x 13 aluminium prop has more grunt and way more top speed than the hydrus.
Still not sure about the propping as our boats at low speeds move fairly freely in the water and are fairly light, it's only when they bog down prior to planing where they really load up and it really is not very economical to run them at those speeds.
I take on board though what has been said and that is why I was puzzled when the dealer suggested to keep the WOT rpm down around 5000.
Will be getting the Hydrus refurbished and will probably buy a prop between the two if possible for different loads and conditions etc.
It's alright to say a prop runs at 5400 on nice flat water with no wind but trying to run hard on rough water will be a totally different prospect especially if loaded a bit more.
We would be up to 300-400 kg different in weight from the start to the finish of a trip and a much larger difference again between day trips and cruising.

[bscott]

Boblee,

I brought up the subject of the Hydrus because this was the prop that was recommended for Macs since it was specific to pontoon boats which were similar in weight to the Mac. However, according to my prop guy, a pontoon boat, once on plane, bounces/lifts the stern causing the prop to get very close to the surface which aerates the prop which then becomes less efficient.

Since the E-tec is rpm sensative I believe any prop that does not afford max performance should be discussed. I will either trade in my Hydrus or keep it as a spare. I think giving up a 14" for a 13" is counter productive given we are aiming for max low speed handling that a 14 affords. It sounds like the ECU senses torque and adjusts fuel/air mixtures accordingly--this is how our BRP snowmobiles operate in conjunction with a torque sensing clutch.

The comment about running 5,000 rpm probably means not to run excessive rpm for extended periods of time even though they recommend a benchmark 5,500/5,700. They obviously have no clue as to how a Mac is operated.

Hopefully your situation is now OK.

Bob

[vkmaynard]

Remind me not to do business with these people! We would never never treat our customers like this.

Apparently Leon deserves only the highest level of attention, the "Manager Call Center". Obviously he is not a Senator.

I have no experience with Suzuki support yet, it may not be much better.