Heaters

[jda]

Obviously it's cold living in NE Minnesota. I haven't noticed anybody talking about cabin heaters for the Mac. What, if anything, is normally used? How?

Thanks.

jda

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

We use a Turbo Dryer onboard ours in the winter.



It's little 100w heater provides plenty on heat in the enclosed space to keep things from freezing out here in the Northwest and it also eliminates any dampness and mold or mildew problems in our mainly wet winters.

[Catigale]

Ill confess that, out of Character for

Steve "Spare no Expense for My Boat" Smith

I use a $9.99 1000W heater from Lowes to bring Catigale up to a nice 65F when I work on her in the driveway....it takes 15 minutes to bring her up to this from a 30F day outside.

I secure the heater to the Galley surface with velcro so it cant tip - also has tip switch though.

I would NOT use this unattended or while sleeping.

[Jeff Ritsema]

If you don't have 110 supply, and want to heat while aboard, I have used the Origo Heat Pal for years, available from any boat supply. Heats using alcohlol, safe for enclosed areas.

[DLT]

I've seen some propane heaters that say they're safe to use indoors. They can be found at all the typical places, home depot, wally world, etc...

Anyone using propane stoves/grills/heaters/etc, on their boats? I know alcohol is supposed to be safer because of the low pressure, but is there another reason?

I know that you wouldn't want to cook with propane inside the boat, if it was all closed up, but I think that could easily be avoided... Especially in the X or '05M, with the galley right near the hatch, even more so for those that dodgers...

My idea is that I'd like to go all propane. I plan to use a propane heater (if needed), propane stove, and even one of those propane water heaters... In other words, use propane for all the "power hog stuff" and 12vdc for all the electronic goodies... This would give me all the comforts of home without the need for 120vac, which then allows me to keep the whole boat 12vdc, which in turn is safer and easier.

The only outstanding issue would be A/C, which I haven't figured out yet. I could probably let that be the one and only 120vac item, that wouldn't be used all the time...

[Sloop John B]

Pier side with electric is easy. Probably use one of those 6 inch squared little boxes with adjustable blower.

It gets cold in Florida, well, north Florida. Fronts move through and it's down to 38 in the morning. My solution is to stay in my mummy bag with just my nostrils sticking out until noon. Then it's up around low 70s.

My mate is too restless and has to get up. She lights these big fat Christmas like candles on the galley shelf. They stink pretty bad, some make you think you've been engulfed by a pine tree. But it does warm the air enough to make a head call. A Coleman lantern warms the cabin in practically no time. We also have a Coleman heater that works like an old time giant hand warmer. Its the type reputed to have suffocated entire families out in California. So, its only good for the time of taking a bird bath and changing into your woollies.

If it really gets cold, i.e. north east Minnesota, stay off the water. As the ice builds it will crush the hull. I recall shopping for a cabin on Lake Vermilion in that area. This place was heated with oil. Out back there was a huge propane tank. I asked, whats that? Realtor says thats a secondary, you know how oil tends to gel around 50 below.

I avoid any DC heating method providing decent warmth because few things drain the battery faster.

[Moe]

That's a smart philosophy in the RV world... never use electricity to create heat. However, with the exception of the stove/oven, all of the propane appliances in an RV are mounted with the intake and exhaust on the outside of the vehicle.

Propane, except when used in a catalytic heater, generates quite a bit of carbon monoxide, like any other combustable. Even in the confines of a 34' Airstream, the stove or oven can be dangerous without venting.

When used in a catalytic heater (no high-amp 12V furnace fan), WITH enough fresh oxygen, it generates a lot of vapor, consisting of CO2 and water, and will have water literally dripping off cold windows and walls without adequate air flow, sometimes even with it. Aside from that, it competes with you for oxygen, which is limited in small areas. If oxygen level drops too far, a catalytic heater WILL produce CO. Some catalytic heaters have oxygen sensors that shut them off when this happens, but some campers don't like those because they cause problems at higher alititudes.

The problem with propane in a boat is that it is heavier than air and sinks into the bilges, where there's no way to vent it, and it can build up to an explosive mixture.

I'm a big fan of propane in the RV world, but not in my boat.
--
Moe

[Catigale]

Please post lots of stuff today.

Catigale was caught out on the water by the Hunter RD team, and they pulled three of my teeth trying to extract the secret of the gybing blue centerboard. I didnt give it up, but am in bed recovering....

Can you use propane safely on board? Since the word 'safe' is ill-defined, the question is ill-posed

In my judgment, using a propane heater below is not advisable. If you routed all of the propane from a locker outside, with a shutoff solenoid, propane leak detector in all (!!) the bilge areas, and a CO detector(s) I might be persuaded....I would still not burn of these with all the safety gear while I sleep.

I do use a propane stove in my galley.

1 All propane stored above decks
2 In good weather the stove is only used up top or on dock.
3 If bad weather forces use below, I leak test the tank joint, and pay attention to the stove, disconnect tank as soon as done and back up outside it goes.

[smidnite]

We use the WM 110 cabin heater when docked and lots of warm clothing when headed to the San Jauns or Blake Island. With the heater we also purchased Zone Dry dehumidifier. Works well together.

[kmclemore]

If you don't have 110 supply, and want to heat while aboard, I have used the Origo Heat Pal for years, available from any boat supply. Heats using alcohlol, safe for enclosed areas.

A few questions about the Origo, Jeff...

• - First, that unit is pretty big (11" round and high) - where do you locate it (safely)?
  - How hot does it get on the outside? Enough to burn skin? I've got little guys who tend to get - ahem - a bit 'rambunctious', shall we say?
  - Finally, does it produce a lot of humidity, resulting in the walls and windows developing water condensation?

Thanks!
Kevin

[Moe]

I should've mentioned that above... even the RV catalytic heater proponents (definitely not me) won't run them while sleeping at night.

Although we've never put the X in the water, we've spent 2 nights on the road camping in it, once down to 40 degrees, once to 50. And we tent-camp in temperatures below 50. I've hunted in even colder, damp weather, once in the middle of an ice storm, and been comfortable.

Perhaps we should start a thread (and not hijack this one) on proper clothing for boating. In my mind, it's a lot safer alternative to cabin heat.

--
Moe

[Catigale]

Couple more points on heaters

Alcohol contains carbon and hydrogen like propane, it just has some oxygen in it. It still has potential to make CO (Carbon monoxide if it is burned in an oxygen poor environment. It has explosive limits of 3.3-19% by volume so you can still ruin your day if you get this in your bilge, so dont throw a plastic bottle of alcohol in your bilge and think this is safe.

Im not sure I agree that a DC system is safer than a 110 AC system. My 110 AC has Ground fault Circuit Interrupters, which I think give you a big leg up on safety.

Running a 1000W DC heater load means running current loads of near 100A DC, which is not practical.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

The biggest reason to avoid propane in a boat is it's heavier than air nature. It won't drain overboard like in an RV. You will be warm briefly when it meets a spark in the bilge. Just say no to propane in the cabin. It is fine in the cockpit where a spill of gas will drain overboard just like water.

The Origo heater is interesting. Not only is it's un-pressurized nature safer below but alcohol needs a open flame to ignite spills, a spark won't do it. You can't light an Origo stove with a sparker like you can a propane one. You have to use a match with a lit flame. Still I would only store the fuel out in the fuel lockers.

If you take a look at the Origo heater, it really is the exact same open burner / fuel container used in their stoves. The only difference is it has what amounts to a big upside down pot over it to protect you from the flame. When I first saw it I thought there must be a finned structure or something inside for absorbing and dispersing heat. There isn't. Since we already have a two burner Origo stove I just bought a stainless colander at Target. I cut a few slots in it so it will slip over the stove pan supports, instant Origo heater. Anyone who has their stove can do this.

Another standard marine heating trick since the dark days of sailing has been the upside down clay pot on the stove.

I wouldn't use either of these methods un-attended or overnight.

Up here in the Northwest the mac dealer has installed quite a few Wallas heater stoves.
http://www.scanmarineusa.com/W800.htm
http://www.scanmarineusa.com/W125.htm
These use mineral spirits or diesel for fuel. With the lid flipped up it is a stove, with the lid folded down a small 12v fan kicks in and blows air over the warmed lid creating a forced air heater. The combustion chamber of the stove is isolated and all exhaust is vented overboard so you get no CO, moisture, or other bad stuff in the cabin. The only down side is their $800 price.

I've also thought that a small forced air diesel system like those used on bigger boats could be put in up high in the starboard aft berth area with a heat vent right along side the head.
http://www.scanmarineusa.com/W30.htm

We leave the 100 watt Turbo Dryer on all the time during storage.

It even works well on a cool night sleeping at the dock adding just that little bit of needed heat for comfortable sleeping.

We also carry a cheap electric heater and on it's 500w setting it heats the boat and the zipped up full enclosure nicely.

When we are at a marina as a guest we pay a flat fee so I don't worry about how much power we use at their typical inflated rates.

[Catigale]

Molecular weight of propane is 44 amu
Equivalent Molecular weight air 28 amu

Molecular weight ethanol 46 amu !!!

So in terms of sinking into the bilge hazard .....ethanol is worse.

I pull explosive limits of propane from web as

2.2%-9% volume (source http://www.puyallupfire.com/lepc/propane.htm)

and Ethanol 3.3-19% volume (source http://www.itcilo.it/actrav/actrav-engl ... /64175.htm)

So Ethanol vapour will explode under a broader range of conditions than Propane.

For me, using anything involving fire below is something to very carefully consider....one thing I like about propane is that any leak becomes apparent my sense of smell....

Fascinating Stuff....

[Jeff Ritsema]

Kevin,
The origo is a bit bulky, and I typically only bring it aboard during colder months (too many in Michigan), storing it below decks. I have used it in evenings at anchor, prior to bedding down to take the chill out of the cabin, and in the AM to do the same. We sleep, ala camping, with a cold nose. I typically place it in the companionway step area to allow for any venting that is possible. This little cooker can heat a small cabin area quite well and quite rapidly and I have found the top warm, not hot to the touch. I would agree with Duane that if you have the origo stove already aboard, this would be redundant and a space waste.