Subaru 2005 towing MacGregor 26M?

[Frank C]

... wouldn't be surprised if my 26M weighed in at 4000 lbs at the scale given all the extras mentioned here to consider. (never really thought about it until reading here). That puts me at 80% of total capacity assuming just a driver. ...

And Terry, if your boat was the X w/factory tires, and if your tongue wt was at 7.5% (of 4000 ~ 300), then your trailer axle weight of 3700 would exceed its stated tire capacity.

In the nearly 7 years I've been reading on various Mac fora, the vastly overwhelming majority of towing failures has been tire failure. I guess the factory has been reading here, since the M trailers have a 4500+ tire capacity.

[Jack O'Brien]

Terry wrote:

"...the blazer weighs about 3500 lbs. I still believe the old motto "Better to be safe than sorry" "


He might want to trade up to an Outback which at 3600 lbs is 100 lbs safer than a Blazer, the AWD is full-time and it has ABS.

[Moe]

Wheelbase helps the tow vehicle remain stable if the trailer sways, and the longer the trailer, the greater the sway force. The 100.5" Chevy/GMC 2-door Blazer is a bit heavier than the Subaru, but IMHO, it, and the 101.7" Ford 2-door Explorer Sport aren't suited for towing much more than a utility trailer. At roughly 105", the Subaru Outback and Honda Pillot aren't much better... maybe 18'-19' overall trailer length. I'd consider 120" wheelbase, including standard cab/short bed 1/2 ton trucks and SUVs, good for 25-26' overall, and slightly short in wheelbase for the roughly 28' trailered MacGregor.

Kevin, I just checked the Toyota website, and they say the 2004 Sienna has a 3500 lb towing capacity... like the Odyssey. Does the printed brochure or owner's manual say 4,000?

--
Moe

[kmclemore]

Kevin, I just checked the Toyota website, and they say the 2004 Sienna has a 3500 lb towing capacity... like the Odyssey. Does the printed brochure or owner's manual say 4,000?

Yeah, Moe, it does... it's rated to 5,000 if you use weight distributing equipment, which the added AirLift springs supply. Of course, the other alternative is to use a weight-distributing hitch, but that's really hard to sort out with the Mac's flakey trailer tongue - the surge brake is in the way and the tongue has no real 'V' to hang the distribution rails onto, either. However, if you don't use any distribution/compensation rig with the Sienna there's simply too much tongue weight - the back of the car sags down, the front lifts up, and the handling, braking, etc are less safe.

Toyota doesn't have it on-line anywhere that I can find, probably because they don't actually offer a class III hitch in their Options & Accessroies line (their class II "Dual Port Hitch System" is a total piece of crap, IMHO), and I guess they'd like to encourage purchase their options? Don't know, but the manual does indeed state that it can accept a class III hitch, and with WD you can go up to 5,000 lbs. It is documented on Hidden Hitch's site though, HERE.

[Chip Hindes]

Would you rather be following a careful and skilled driver who is pulling 3501 lbs with a class II tow vehicle OR would you rather follow a reckless or inexperienced driver who is pulling that same load with a big ole dually (class V tow vehicle) rated for over 3 time the load?

Would you rather be buried alive or burned to death?

Why do I have to choose? The lesser of two evils is still evil. The only reasonable answer is "none" of the above", and the question is therefore irrelevant.

I don't care how careful or good a driver you are, if you're towing a Mac with an underrated vehicle you're still risking my life and that of my loved ones as well as your own, and I'm asking you not to do it.

[Jack O'Brien]

Chip H wrote:

"...if you're towing a Mac with an underrated vehicle you're still risking my life and that of my loved ones as well as your own,..."

Evidently, somewhere in a place far greater than we might know, there are magical gods who decide what the RATING should be for towing. Woe to the mere mortal who doesn't follow that RATING with blind faith and devotion for it is sacrosanct and to tow with an even one pound UNDERRATED vehicle (Heaven Help Us) is bound to destroy us and all who cross our path.

BULL DUNG!

Ratings are more about warrantee costs and probabilities of drive train component failure than they are about safety. This is not to say they are unrelated to safety - just that there is not necessarily a direct correlation.

TWO EXAMPLES

Ford F-150, 5.4L V-8, 144.5" wheelbase:
7300 lbs towing capacity with axle ratio of 3.31
9900 lbs towing capacity with axle ratio of 4.1
No other changes of brakes, suspension, or any safety-related aspect.

Please, show me where one is 2,600 lbs. safer than the other.

Honda Pilot:
3,500 lbs towing capacity for regular trailers
4,500 lbs towing capacity for boat trailers (reduced wind resistance)
Same exact vehicle.

Please, show me where towing a boat is 1000 lbs safer than another trailer.

Yes, the probability is that bigger, higher-rated vehicles are safer than underrated vehicles- but it ain't necessarily so. One needs to have good mechanical sense and good judgement and not be an unquestioning slave to some Actuarial Engineer's cost rating.

[kmclemore]

One needs to ..... not be an unquestioning slave to some .... Engineer's ....

Well, speaking as an engineer myself, we rather enjoy having you all as slaves, thank-you-very-much.

Having said that, we will now accept your humble and gracious words of admiration. You may begin at any time.


(Now, as far as the discussion of towing capacity, I'll just say that one should take into account the manufacturer's recommendations, and then apply the 'reasonableness' test.... which I believe is what Jack is saying, sort of. )

[Captain Steve]

You know, this topic of towing with a Subaru comes up annually, around new model time....have the Subaru dealers invaded this list????

[Chip Hindes]

Ratings are more about warrantee costs and probabilities of drive train component failure than they are about safety.

You're assuming it's all about warranty, and that no less bull dung than that it's all about safety. You think wind resistance has nothing to do with safety? Tell that to the guy when the wind blew his travel trailer, being pulled by a Dodge minivan with seven passengers in it, off the NYS Thruway, where it rolled and killed over half of them.

I'd be interested to know if there's one other person out there who doesn't own one, but who thinks a 2500 lb capacity Suburu is a perfectly acceptable tow vehicle for a Mac.

[Jack O'Brien]

Jack wrote:

"Ratings are more about warrantee costs and probabilities of drive train component failure than they are about safety. This is not to say they are unrelated to safety - just that there is not necessarily a direct correlation."


Chip wrote:

"You're assuming it's all about warranty"


Hey Chip, which reading classes did you miss in your schooling?

Please do not tell me what I am assuming - I don't have to assume what I write - I think it through carefully without firing from the hip.

Don't try to prove a point with ONE hearsay example of somebody driving off a Thruway with a trailer and dying. They fly off I-95 and die like flies here in Floridah with and without trailers. And talk about wind, try one of our four recent eyewalls to blow your mind.

Don't know of any Outbacks with 2,500 lbs rating. The '97 I used to have was 2,000 lbs and the 2005 Markintosh has is 3,000 lbs.

Do not misquote me or even imply I said:

" ...a 2500 lb capacity Suburu is a perfectly acceptable tow vehicle for a Mac."

What I wrote was that it worked for me in limited conditions for two years and the 2005 with a higher rating, heavier weight and stronger motor will probably do better.

'nuff said.

[kmclemore]

...Tell that to the guy when the wind blew his travel trailer, being pulled by a Dodge minivan with seven passengers in it, off the NYS Thruway, where it rolled and killed over half of them....

Well, I can't speak to a Subaru - I never much liked the brand myself, but then that's just my own personal preference and other's mileage will certainly vary. However, I can say that when I towed my Mac back from New Mexico with my Sienna I experienced cross-winds gusting between 50 and 60 mph on the flatlands of the desert... and although the car and I clearly did NOT enjoy the experience, it wasn't all that hard to control.. a bit of sway, but the car and trailer still stuck to the road. Had it been raining or foul weather it might have been another story, but then I wouldn't have towed it in such conditions.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Wow, you guys are still at this one eh....well...

Tell that to the guy when the wind blew his travel trailer, being pulled by a Dodge minivan with seven passengers in it, off the NYS Thruway, where it rolled and killed over half of them.

See why I traded my Dodge minivan for a Honda? Ok, I know..I'm being offensive again... But I "felt" unsafe towing my 1500 lb jetboat with my Caravan...heck, I felt unsafe doing 80 on the Interstate without pulling any trailer. Now, my Honda is a different story, I was driving through SC a couple years ago in the middle of the night....doing about 85 (yes, I have been known to speed at times...lol) and a deer jumped out right in front of me. I had no choice but to swerve dramatically (completely out of my lane) or else hit the deer and risk an accident. As I was doing it reflexively, I was gritting my teeth (expecting to have to cross correct a rear wheel slide out) but whoa was I surprised...that big ole minivan held the road like a freakin sportscar...the kids didn't even wake up. I dare you to try that litmus test with your big pickup trucks!

Talking about pickup trucks...the very day I picked up my overloaded Mac (yes, that day it was severely overloaded full of extra stuff that the seller threw in - including the 150# of dumbells I eventually took out of the Vberth flotation compartment) from an RV lot in Ruskin FL and drove it home with my minivan, there was an accident on I-75. A pickup truck towing a horse trailer. The horse trailer was still facing forward and seemed to still be attached to the truck, but the pickup was exactly upsidedown on the road with all the glass broken out. I have no idea how that accident happened (no other vehicles involved)...but it was a truck...it did make me drive real slow for the 25 miles home though...people were honking at me cause I was only going 55-60 - folks like to drive fast in Florida

Ok, Kevin tows with a Sienna..another nice minivan, but I believe it is definitely smaller than an Odyssey (even if the Sienna has a larger towing capacity). That 4300+ lbs and 118 inch wheelbase I have means something...as I said before, I do not fear for my safety, I fear for the fact that I might rag out the vehicle prematurely. I really doubt that it is any less safe than a shorter wheelbased vehicle. The first couple times I towed my Mac, the trailer brakes were completely shot..ie, zero braking. The Odyssey had no problem stopping the load. With the 3.5L V-6, I can tow the Mac and accelerate just as fast as normal traffic. I don't have to hit the gas hardly at all...the transmission just shifts a bit later with higher RPM's. and there is still plenty of power left at 70mph. Sure, it starts swaying a bit at 70..but it seems everyone says that regardless of the tow vehicle. But at 60, she is solid as a rock..no matter whether I'm passed by a big semi. The fact that my minivan handles so well when its not towing..IS..pertinent to my towing comfort zone. I dare say that my well handling Odyssey may actually be a safer tow vehicle than a poorer handling Blazer or pickup that has a higher towing capacity.

As with everything, moderation is the key and I don't think there is a whole lot of difference to a person who is towing with a barely acceptible tow vehicle versus some who want to be alarmists and make everyone think you need a 5 digit towing capacity to pull this boat. You are just going from one extreme to another. In fact, sometimes having too much capacity can make people complacent and over confident....hence dangerous. So Chip, please don't think that because you have an overrated truck and 2 axles on your trailer that you can pass me like a maniac and put me and my family in danger...please just don't do it.

P.S. Is this thread deja Vu or what?

P.P.S. Chip, I would rather drown, thank you very much!

[Markintosh]

I really appreciate all the input that you Mac sailors have provided to my original query. After reading through them, I think that I can draw these general conclusions:

* With its 250 hp engine, lower center of gravity, longer and wider wheelbase, my Subaru 2005 would likely be able to tow a MacGregor without any major trauma, as long as I...

- keep any additional weight (fuel, ice chests, outboard engine, passengers in the car, etc.) to a bare minimum,

- make sure all tires are inflated properly,

- have reliable surge brakes on the trailer,

- drive at a safe, conscientious speed.

* The most worrisome complication is not the vehicle or the boat, but the possible reaction of my insurance company or the manufacturer should (heaven forbid) an accident occur. Hmmm.

* I am not in any hurry to get a 26M right now, so I might as well wait for a bit to see what other solutions will develop. MacGregor continues to revise and improve the boat (this year's redesign of the interior is a good example), and it wouldn't surprise me if he started to concentrate on ways of reducing the weight by 15%-25% --perhaps by adopting my suggestion of a second water-ballast tank that fills and drains automatically. With the rising price of gasoline and the volatile situation in the Middle East, it seems pretty clear that smaller models, hybrids, even hydrogen-powered cars will become more the norm than the exception during the next several years. If MacGregor is prudent... he will foresee that trend and improve the 26M accordingly.

Again, thanks for sharing your experience and suggestions!

Markintosh

[Moe]

I'd recommend someone with a small car like the Outback, hauling a small family while trailering a boat, take a look at the West Wight Potter 19.

Smaller than the Mac, but economical, unsinkable, and with a galvanized trailer! They have their own followers on the TrailerSailor.com forums.

The 105" wheelbase of the Outback is more than a bit short for the towing length of this boat, but the boat's lighter weight should minimize the effect of sway on the car.

--
Moe

[kmclemore]

I'd recommend someone with a small car like the Outback, hauling a small family while trailering a boat, take a look at the West Wight Potter 19.

Indeed, with even the smallest of cars...