A New 33' Quasi Mac?

[Gravydon]

Hi Richard I like this set up it looks good, I would like to see a bigger motor for the boat to push it at 14 or 15 mph But it will do if has to be slower

[Uncle Jim]

I am somewhat concerned about the poll results at this point. 52% of all respondents have stated their maximum budget for this boat would be between $30K and $39,999. On the other hand, 48% could budget between $40K and $54,999.
Art

Hi Art,
Don't be too arlarmed about the poll results. I voted for option 2 ( 35-39K range) based on a Mac build, lowest cost to get it out the door, and without all of the niceties that we all love to have on board, sails, wheels for the trailers, sheets, halyards you know the extras that make sailing so much more enjoyable. Compaired to the Hunter 33 at $120K (annapolis show price) PLUS commisiong, electronics, etc we're talking $200K before the boats hits the water. I'll be looking at mid 40's, my only problem will be getting Sea Dreamer off of the demo boat

I would appreciate everyone's input on buying direct versus dealer and the price range.

Buying direct, is the only way to go, I'm going to have to pay to get it to the east coast one way or another. I can do all of the set ups myself out here and sounds like there'll be little need for too much in the way of commisioning. Any chanch of you being at the Annaplois Show with it in the Fall?

I have just one question though, what are those gear heads over at sailing anarchy going to say about your boat being redesigned by a bunch of Mac-Sailers?

[AWKIII]

Hi Jim.

We will definitely have to figure a way to show the boat so folks can kick the tires.

I am not sure the boat show circuit is the way to go anymore. They seem to be a dying breed. Exhibition costs continue to increase while attendance drops year each year. There doesn't seem to be an end to the downward spiral.

We have been thinking about a road show. Simply selecting cities and setting up dates for a meet and greet. Each can be done over a weekend and set well in advance.

There has also been some thought given to regional distributors. Instead of a gaggle of dealers, we assign a large geographical area to an individual who represents us. They would receive a commission for each boat sold. We would control the price of the boat and insure there would be no gouging. They could be a Mac/Hunter/Catalina dealer though.

I am not worried about the folks over at SA. The vast majority are good guys and know their stuff. It is always the vocal minority that creates the noise. The Mac takes a beating from a lot of people. SA is just a public place for some of them to vent. If you spend any time over there at all you will find they also rip on J Boats, Hunters, Catalinas and Beneteaus as well.

Will they rag on this boat? No doubt in my mind. However, there will be a large portion that will look at this boat and it's price point and will buy it. Will we advertise it on SA? Yup!

Art

[Richard O'Brien]

Hi Jim.

We will definitely have to figure a way to show the boat so folks can kick the tires.

I am not sure the boat show circuit is the way to go anymore. They seem to be a dying breed. Exhibition costs continue to increase while attendance drops year each year. There doesn't seem to be an end to the downward spiral.

Art

Hi Art

Does this mean that you're not coming to the Denver Boat Show in two weeks?

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

In working on a layout that is overlayed on the H33 plan things are quite a bit different than the dimensions used in all the drawings so far. The bow is certainly finer, when scaled at 33' LOA the compression post is 14'-3" from the tip of the bow and the keel trunk is 5'-6" long and 16" wide at the widest point seen in the photos.

Also I feel that a curved seating area is inappropriate for a boat this small. The seating and table have to be able to convert into a berth, preferably a double. The only shape that works for this is rectangular. Because of the narrow beam it's going to end up like a Mac seating double which is very narrow. My X table berth is the perfect size for a twin airbed mattress. While my wife did sleep there during our 3-1/2 week cruise to Canada we have since moved on to the much more comfortable extended Vee berth that is possible in the X.

Also in general you can't quite push everything fully out to the exterior lines, particularly if Art is going to use a walk around the cabin deck instead of a walk over the cabin deck.

Art,

I've also been playing with the elevation plan of the boat. Are you planning to raise the hull sides, or build hull extensions into the deck mold that join the hull partway up at a rub strip? The extra height needed to get 6' headroom throughout the boat is quite substantial.

I'd debate the need of any dedicated Nav area in this small of a boat. You can't fit a station big enough to hold a real chart, particularly an offshore one in a small boat so you end up using the table anyway. I feel all nav is now done at the helm. No one mounts a GPS below anymore if it is the only GPS on the boat, why would I want to leave the helm to see where I am. Only on a boat with two GPS's would one be below and those are much bigger boats than this.

What steering is this boat going to have? Tiller or Wheel? I hope wheel, I think a tiller will greatly hurt sales. I can't think of a pedestal design I have seen on any recent boat that hasn't planned on the GPS/Chartplotter being installed at the pedestal. This is part of all new offshore designs.

I also don't see the point of a little tiny area you have to squeeze into to enter the aft berth. The boat is too small for a aft cabin standing area. Remember you have to account for all shapes and sizes of people. I don't think a typical large 250lb American male could stand in the small access area in the latest drawing. The aft cabin space is already tight to enter, we shouldn't make it harder by having to squeeze into a small phone booth and then somehow bend down to get in the berth. We need both sides wide open to the main cabin so people can do the gymnastics required to get in the aft berth.

I'm going for big table, big galley, big head that is co-joined to the vee berth area for a big dressing area. That's it no other features, a single partition with a door so there is one private area in the boat. When you try and put all the other stuff in everything just becomes ticky tacky small like a tent trailer or a Mac. Put in less stuff and you can have full size components that actually make cruising pleasurable.

[Gravydon]

Hi all
So when do you think the first boat will be finished and ready to sell, I am very interested in this boat.. I know it will take time......
I agree dont need a nav station,that is what the table is for and most people dont use charts anyway not with the electronics these days lol..... Need places to sleep though, the more the better, even if they are small for the kids, and grandkids.... need a wheel though...and can this boat be single handed and ill be happy ,

All I need is a place to put my toes in the sand and a drink in my hand
Thanks

[Don T]

Duane,
That's what I said, the pictures looked quite different than the line drawing we were given to do a layout on.

I put in a nav station because that's what Art said he wanted, although, I do feel there should be an equipment station with the electrics, propane sniffer-control, extra radio, boat & passenger paperwork etc. It could have room for extra gps (handy anchor alarm) if the buyer wants it. That's what the space aft of the table in my design is. There would be room for a freezer below. Since both my wife and I snore, having seperate sleeping aft is also a plus. I'm sure no-one wants to hear us sawing logs. So I vote for 2 privacy areas.

Having the compression post further aft means the table can be set aft with ample room for access fore & aft and it would give a much roomier head forward. Maybe there would be enough room for my toes in the V-berth. I wasn't working out details, just the general layout ideas because there are way too many unknowns. Now if I had sheets of cardboard, a few rolls of duct tape and free access to the hull deck assembly, I could work a lot more of it out optimizing every nook.

Don

[Bumpcity]

Hey Don,

Everything you are saying sounds great...As long as the V berth has enough space for two adults...then two private berths would work just fine...I like the electronic station...as I had mentioned in my earlier reply, I think this location should be "pre-wired" for any and all possibilties...including a connection for speakers, a TV/ computer screen connection (so you can have any chartplotter transfered to a larger screen while doing your cruise planning or just watching a DVD...It would not cost much to have everything labeled and in place. Anyway, the drawings are great and as everyone else has mentioned, I would trade up in a second for this boat...This would be a long term cruiser for me since it is trailable and stable enough for blue water...

Lorenzo

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Here is my drawing.

As I mentioned my design goals were to have full size spaces in the cabin, no Mac-mini versions of anything.

To do this I have only included the following

• A Vee berth that a real couple could sleep in comfortably for an extended time behind a real door.
• Floor space adjacent to the Vee berth for comfortable private dressing.
• A Head with full standing headroom and space to move around and take care of business.
• A Galley with room for real marine appliances and plenty of counter top space along with real cupboards and drawers.
• A large table and seating area that converts to a full size berth.
• A hanging locker and an electrical / electronics area.

The layout is drawn on a scaled bitmap of the current Hobie 33 so the exterior lines should be correct as well as the placement of the compression post and the keel trunk.

The keel trunk is an interesting artifact to work around. There really isn't as much floor space available as you would think. From the pictures posted I have assumed the keel enclosure is seat height. I have taken Art at his word and extended the cabin back 18". Also looking at the elevation it looks like the center of the aft berth area is going to be really low, too low for sleeping under. Perhaps Art can raise the cockpit floor enough to change this, but I decided to use separate port and starboard aft berths. They are still plenty big to sleep two adults. I've provided berths for 6 people on board. Other than the table berth being a narrow double because of the narrow beam, these are 6 full adult size berths not Mac-mini. I have left the access to the aft berths open to the cabin. We've had great success with fabric screens of room darkening fabric and I think these would work great back there. This allows plenty of space to bend and fold your body as needed to get in the berths. The companionway should be a SS ladder that can be flipped up for even better berth access as well as access to the storage space down the center. It looks like the boat is designed to have the batteries mounted in this center area under the companionway.

I've located the head forward of the compression post which allows the forward floor space to be dual purpose giving real room in the head for taking care of business along with real room in the forward cabin for dressing and getting in and out of the vee berth. I like the idea from the other drawings of using the folding vinyl doors often seen in RV's to screen off the head itself as well as the vee berth. Personally I doubt I would ever use the vee berth one but I drew it in anyway. I also think this single wall design would be very easy and economical to build keeping the overall boat cost low. This design also puts the smaller elements forward where the boat is narrower and gives the wider part of the boat to the salon.

I'd like to see 4" min foam for all seating and berths. The table should be simple with small fiddles all around except for corners allowing it to be easily swept off. It should be supported on sturdy large pipe columns that are easily removed when you want to lower it. I actually think my family of 5 could sleep easily in this boat with out even lowering the table.

The boat should have demand switch faucets providing running water. With the proximity of the two sinks a single through hull drain would suffice. It should carry 20 gallons minimum of water. A minimum of a 5 gallon porta potty should be provided with the option of a true head with 10 gallons of holding capacity.

The boat should have both AC and DC power. The AC should be 30 amp shore power feeding a 2 bank charger and 5 outlets, 2 per side in the main cabin and 1 in the forward cabin by the sink.

DC power should come from 2 banks with a combiner for charging from the engine. Reading lights (5) should be provided at all berths. A main ceiling light should be located over the table and two more over the galley as well as one in the head/cabin area. All reading and running lights should be LED bulbs. A masthead navigation / anchor light should be provided.

As for the exterior my must have list would include a bow roller capable of carrying and anchor. A full bow and stern pulpit, lifelines the full length with stanchions that are at least 24" high. I'd like to see wheel steering on a pedestal capable of mounting navigation equipment and a cockpit table. The wheel should be 20"+ to allow easy installation of an autopilot.

Here's my feature list for this design.

• There is a true forward cabin with a real door.
• Behind this door there is a full stand up head / forward cabin with vee berth.
• The head has enough room for a full size adult bend over and pull up his pants without resorting to leaving the head door open.
• The head has a sink to starboard.
• The head itself can be screened off and the dual use floor space can be part of the forward private cabin for dressing and sleeping in privacy.
• The vee berth is sized for two adults to sleep comfortably. The main portion is 7' long and a filler can be added to make the sleeping area over 8' in length.
• In the main salon the entire starboard side is dedicated to the galley and storage.
• At the aft end of the starboard side is a hanging locker. Forward of this is a 7' long galley with plenty of space for a 2 burner stove and large sink. The cabinet height should be close to normal kitchen height giving plenty of space for real cupboards and drawers as well as room for a built in fridge if desired.
• To port in the salon is a large seating area and table.
• The table can be lowered to convert this area into another berth.
• At the aft end of this seating there is a full electrical panel and navigation equipment panel that runs from seat height up to the ceiling. This provides plenty of surface for mounting navigation devices and radios in addition to the DC and AC electrical panels.
• Under all the seating is additional storage.

Looking at the elevation I think the boat can provide 6'0" headroom from the companionway all the way forward through the head and still have a nice profile. This works out to a 12' long cabin with full headroom. There is still a nice 9' cockpit and a good sized foredeck to work on.



I also looked at a aft head version because my wife asked, but decided not to pursue it due to a number of issues. Maintaining the headroom forward stretches the cabin forward another 16" making for a small foredeck. Maintaining adequate room in the head and a separate space to stand in the forward cabin eats up floor space quick. Sliding the seating and galley forward squeezes these into a part of the boat that is substantially narrower. The compression post and keel trunk actually now are in a worse location for the table and seating. The head completely obstructs starboard side access to the rear berth so now you have to have some kind of double accessed from the port side only. The vee berth also has to be shortened which I feel is a mistake.

You can see this incomplete drawing on page 2 of this PDF file. The main layouts above are on page 1.

http://home.comcast.net/~duane.dunn/ima ... io-H33.pdf

Now if Art would just ship we a finished hull, deck, and mast on a trailer I'd be happy to provide a full mock up of the interior (of course I'd get to keep the boat when finished).

[Don T]

Duane,
Let me know when it arrives, I'll be up in a jiffy.

On edit:
Got a good look at your design. I think the head will have to be more towards the centerline so it can be mounted on the sole. That kinda screws up that whole area. Maybe the screen could be at an angle and the head mounted forward looking. Door needs to swing from the starboard side.

In the aft head design the same criteria should be observed. The head should be part of the dressing & access room to the aft berth. Head forward (facing aft) and the sink to starboard. Runs into the same problem of there not being much sole inside the space. Maybe in both cases the head could be elevated thus allowing it to be moved more outboard.

Don

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I expected that the whole head closet so to speak would need a raised floor of about 6" to get a flat surface. If it needs to come out 6" more into the space that will not hurt anything. I'd keep it all square, having worked for many years in the the past doing interior retail space planning I know for a fact you can never get as much stuff in a space on a diagonal as you do when it is square.

I'd also like to see a 3"-4" ridge cast in the floor where the wall is to give the head floor area a bathtub floor pan making it possible to add a sump and use it for a nice large shower with the vinyl screen doors closed.

My thought was to cast the vee berth back to the beginning of the filler space into the pan, then drop down to floor level, have a ridge at the wall, cast full width flat all the way back to the aft berth save for the keel trunk. The seating and galley would all be built out of a light plywood, the wall and door would be a 7/8" plywood panel. This would keep the pan simple and make it flexible if others wanted to do different things.

That's an interesting idea for the aft head one to make the head space also an entry cabin for the aft berth. I do still think the cockpit is going to have to be raised quite a bit to allow sleeping under the foot area. If Art can get it high enough to allow you to not only squeeze in but roll over comfortably you could end up with a nice aft cabin. In that case I'd close off the port side and add a small nav desk at the end of the seating. I'd use an athwartships berth in the aft cabin. The sleeping area could be 65" wide and leave the far aft area available for a nice lazzarette in the cockpit.

Sorry for so much random stuff.

Another though for Art, I'd like to see the seats in the cockpit be a full 8' in length and at least 24" wide so they can be slept on as well. Our middle son has slept in our X cockpit for years. It's quite comfortable up there with our full enclosure. I should also mention I think the boat should have at least space for 12 gallons of fuel to have a reasonable range with a 25hp motor.

I personally don't think a trailerable boat merits a full propane system but I suppose an exterior locker with a drain for a small tank would make sense and could simply be used to store the bottles as well. For me I would just stick with portable tanks on a outdoor BBQ. My stove inside would be a Wallas 2 burner that provides cooking and heat for the cabin. I would not have a hot water system other than maybe a portable camping style one.

I intentionally mentioned some small tank sizes as I think we have to watch weight for two reasons. One being the overall trailer load as this boat does not leave it's ballast behind like a Mac. And the second being that most of the web sites I read about the H33 mentioned that it was a tender boat. The very round hull has little to no form stability. One site mentioned that without 7 people on the rail for ballast he was having to shorten sail at only 10 knots of wind. I think watching weight forward where the hull is very fine will be particularly important and as this is the logical place for any water and waste tanks I don't think they can be too big. They should be real however, std tanks with deck fills and vents, none of this portable water bag stuff.

I didn't mention it but I would design in a top access ice chest with a drain into the galley. All built in fully insulated, not a drop in coleman. It could be used as an ice box and should be built to allow adding a cold plate from one of the new very efficient mini 12v Dan Forth compressors as an option.

I'm also curious about the plans for the mast and boom. One web site mentioned that the Hobie mast was a rather heavy old style mast. Will the new one be better Art? I'd vote for a nice flexible fractional rig mast with a wide channel style boom instead of a std tubular one. This boom in conjunction with a zip top sail catcher and lazy jacks would make sail handling easy.

[Don T]

Duane,
I added an aft head layout to my drawings in the mod section. I know my trunk is not accurate but it gives you the idea. I didn't want to start back at square one but I suppose I'll have to. (it kinda looks like a large mac now )

The hull line drawing on the net shows a shallower curve to the hull not a round one so 6" of elevation should yield about 12" of outward placement aft but only 8" forward.

Moving the head aft would allow centering the table over the trunk.

I would love to do a kabitz with you in person. This way is so slooooooow.

Also I think you'll find that the new stern is wider than the traditional H33

Don

PS. Are you going to the BWY VIP gathering on Jan 22nd (Seattle boat show preview)?

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Don, you've done a nice job of turning it into a stretched X.

Unfortunately working on the actual hull shape,the placement of the compression post and that 5' long keel trunk makes the forward seating area a mess. With a U shaped seating area like you have drawn, the foot entry at each end is totally obstructed. You have to completely do away with the forward cabin and extend the seating way forward right up to the vee berth to get it to completely wrap around the keel trunk and be able to get in and out of the seating. You also end up with the post in the table which makes it much harder to deal with and pretty much does away with any table berth option. The pole is in the berth area eliminating any chance the berth could be a double.

I also took a close look at the elevation drawing and even if the cockpit floor was raised 12" I don't see that there would be enough space to sleep under the cockpit except for the smallest kids. Sleeping crosswise there wouldn't even be enough room for an adult set of hips to roll over. It's completely unacceptable as far as I'm concerned. We looked at sleeping this way in our X and found it was too low in the center and it is way higher than this boat.

These were some of the many things that led me to decide the aft head made no sense with the boats true hull shape. In the layout you have been drawing on the full beam is carried way forward but this is not the case with the real hull. I decided it makes the most sense to locate the big things at the fattest part of the boat (the seating, table, and galley) and put the smaller things forward at the narrow part (the head and private cabin space). That's the layout I'm sticking with.

It's much like the way the M feels more open than an X. With the Salon aft you put the main living space at the widest part of the boat instead of sucking it up with the head like the X. This exercise has actually led me to think about some major remodeling that would improve my X as well. Now if there was a way to push the cabin of our Mac's up so we could get better headroom forward. The M layout isn't bad if you could get room to actually stand up in the head. Even though it is small (and the vee berth is too short) with more headroom it would be quite usable. The only other thing I would have to do if I somehow had to use a M is ditch the micro sliding galley for a real size one.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I worked a little bit more on the aft head taking into account your suggestion of the head being shared space for an aft cabin stateroom entrance. Also while looking at the pictures of a couple of 34' boats reviewed in the recent Cruising World magazine I decided that what made the most sense with a aft head was the tried and true centerline table design. This in particular works very well with the keel trunk.

So here is a aft head layout, buy my personal preference is still for the forward head layout.

I don't like the fact that you eat up more space to keep a forward cabin standing area and an aft cabin / head area. The combined single space gives you more space than you get in either of the two separate spaces. You also have to shrink the galley, particularly the face area. You also end up with less dressing space in the forward cabin and have to shrink the vee berth. I really like the large vee berth in the forward head version. I also think most would keep the starboard side table down most of the time for access forward. I also think this layout would cost more to build than the forward head version.

The two long seats that also can be berths are nice as is the central gathering area. And it does give you two full behind door double staterooms. Of course I still question being able to sleep athwartships in the aft berth under the low cockpit floor.

For completeness:

Here is the forward head plan view



Here is the forward head elevation view



Here is the aft head plan view



Here is the aft head elevation view



I think that pretty much wraps up my thoughts on this project

[Don T]

Duane,
I'm pretty sure Art said there would not be sufficient clearance for an athwartship rear berth (it would add a great lazarette in the cockpit though). I am also sure elevating the forward head sufficiently for a flat pan removes the possibility for standing room in the head but then, who needs to stand while in the head (guys remember, always sit when underway). EDIT: OK,OK showers being THE when. Re-dressing can be done just outside the opening but still behind a door. The other thing about the forward head design is the reduced seating. That trunk really messes with the layout. I think I'll put my mind to working on this some more.