A New 33' Quasi Mac?

[AWKIII]

Hi guys.

I have had offers from Duane Dunne and Richard O'Brien to do the drawing. Thanks!

Here's the deal. Because we are still negotiating, I cannot release drawings or even the name of the boat. If everything comes together, I think many of you will recognize it and the opportunities it presents.

What I am trying to accomplish right now is to get an idea from the board on how they would like to see the cabin layed out. I realize consensus is impossible with this kind of process but getting a rough draft would be great.

It would be super if we simply took the interior line drawing from the 26M factory site and scaled it to 33'. Remember, we will be using the existing hull and re-designing the deck. So you can dictate cockpit length and go from there.

Again, all I need is Richard or Duane to put up a bare line drawing and then let the games begin. Of course basic measurements will be needed on furniture but we don't have to sweat the details. That's the job of the NA.

I would love to see what folks would like down below and where to locate it. Enclosed head, enclosed stateroom(s), hanging lockers, nav station, shelving, galley, dinette, etc.

The only thing I would like to pass along is that we are attempting to build an affordable 33' trailerable sailboat. We cannot do that by chopping down a bunch of trees and using them down below. So it would be great to think about alternative materials to wood.

The only design requirement is that of the lifting keel. If you handled it like the daggerboard arrangement on the M you will be fine. Again, don't worry about the height of the board. The width should be 1.5x that of the M.

PLEASE contribute! This project is has gone from warm to hot and all the parties involved are on the same page. It all boils down to the buck now.

Richard or Duane....could one of you guys shoot us a hull? I think you should moderate the process as well. We don't want too many cooks.

Thanks,

Art

[delevi]

I'm an unlikely buyer for reasones previously stated, but I'll put in my 5 cents worth.
1. Large master cabin, preferably aft and small forward cabin for guests or kids or storage.
2. Fully enclosed cabins or at least the master cabin.
3. Usable galley with running hot/cold water, gimbled propane stove and ice box with refrigeration if not cost prohibitive.
4. Saloon with seating both port and starboard. Due to width limitations, probably a very narrow table with folding leafs. An open saloon is very imortant... the Mac lacks this and makes everything feel a bit cramped. The galley can be incorporated in the saloon area, as long as it doesn't interfere with the "social circle" of the table and seating arrangement.
5. Wood veneers over compressed, ply or fill are much cheaper than solid wood, so that can be one way to save on cost. Beneteau does this.
6. Fully enclosed head with standing headroom and shower. Can be a pullout hand shower from the sink plus floor drain. Probably the only option for this size boat.
7. Make the cockpit as large as possible.
8. Wheel steering. Certainly there are two sides to this, but I for one, will never buy a boat with a tiller, unless we're talking Sunfish, etc.
9. Pedestal conducive to installing full array of electronics.
10. Some sort of swim platform off the stern. The Mac setup is a bit of a joke. I realize that an outboard engine makes this difficult... but hey, I'm not the designer here
11. Full width traveler with access to both mainsheet and travleler by the helmsman.
12. Electric winch (option) which can be used for keel lifting and double as a halayrd winch.
13. All control lines running through the boom or below decks, or whatever, just integrated so they're not dangling or sloppy. This may add to cost, but I think every yacht that is worthy of that title should be set up with all major control lines running to the cockpit. I would include reefing lines in this, (at least two.)
14. In-boom furling main (option) if possible without altering the standard rig setup.
15. Solid connection from helm to rudder with no other crap in between. A 25 hp outboard should be able to be locked at center and rudder steered, or assisted via its own tiller handle. Also, allow for the kick-up or lifting rudder setup to be very solid. On the Mac, the rudder is on one swivel bolt and the entire bottom of the bracket is prone to side loads with no reinfocement. I don't know the exact solution, but bottom line, something much more solid than on the Mac. An emergency tiller setup in case of steering failure would also be a nice feature.
16. Adjustable backstay
17. Spreaders which are not swept aft, or with minor sweep to allow for proper downwind mainsail trim.
18. As heavy of a keel as you can possibly live with, preferably a bulb. My take on ballast is the more the better. If it's a bulb, you might consider two bulb sizes based on the customer's preference per their sailing grounds.
19. Wood floors... teak & holly, etc... just wood of some sort.
20. As much storage for clothing and dishes as possible with bilges accessible for storing gear.
21. Windlass option.
22. Mast raising gear built into the trailer to eliminate the need to set it up, or at least reduce the time.
23. Small nav station/computer table would be nice, even a fold-out version but would pass on this if it meant compromising the flow of the cabin i.e. making it choppy. Fold out might be a good solution. Not sure how the chair setup would fit in to all this.
24. Sufficient fuel, water, waste tankage capacity for 1 week cruise.
25. Quality hardware
26. Boat price should not include sails. Customer would then have the option of selecting from the KH line or having a set made from a loft of their choice. Perhaps I'm preaching to the choir on this one Art I like this arrangement much more than having to pay for low-end sails which are priced into the boat.

Well that's my list and in no particular order of priority. How much did I just run the price up

On further edit:
I know this might be going overboard, but I'll throw it out for kicks. I saw this setup on the Tartan 3400 and I think it's super cool. Dual headstays (not a ture cutter rig) but fairly close together. Inner stay would have an 80-90% self-tacking jib for upwind work. Outer forestay would have a 155% genoa for reaches or light air.

35-40 hp outboard vs. 25 would also be nice, especially if the keel is heavier.

Now if you can pack all this stuff in at a decent cost, I might just be tempted to trade up.

Cheers,
Leon

[Love MACs]

Man Delevi about said it all!!!. Except that I would like to add some pre-wiring in the interior so you could easily add electronics or other power using devices. That way there is no more having to run wires here and there. I know everyone is different in their power use but having it pre-wired so all you have to do is tape into existing wires would/could be a real plus.

Allan

[noahvale]

I think it sounds great. I have been planning to move up to a bigger boat when I retire in 5-7 years. A bigger boat that trailers sounds almost too good to be true. I agree with 25HP being plenty for a boat that size. I'm not interested in motor/sailors, the 9.9 on my Mac25 is all that I will ever need for it.

[Richard O'Brien]

Hi Art

Duane is a fantastic talent. I've been to his web site and seen his work. He has plenty of experience with storage, and family needs, as well. My talent is in architectural details. some of which could be relevant, but I can go either way.

I like the idea of a contained stateroom too. some yachts extend the rear quarter berth beyond the ladder so you can put your shoes on and in one case I saw that double as the Nav center for a fold down chart table. All separated by a folding curtain/door. Maybe an 8'-9' cockpit would render that unneccessary? I think the head /Shower belongs behind the Dagger-trunk wall. Narrow, but long. I also still like the idea of Thermo-formed pieces. Small coffers with rounded corners can be sunk in for thin 1/4" waterproof plywood. No need for teak. Bamboo is eco-friendly. Plastics can be printed with wood-grain that you really can't tell from the original also; however they do scratch, and eventually the truth is revealed. I believe Roger's frames are part of that genre? I think there exists plenty of room for a deep anchor-well, as I suspect this hull has a fairly plumb bow if it has racing lineage. I also saw a straight backed salon with a shallow 3-4" deep storage area between the settee, and the hull curvature.

[AWKIII]

Hi all.

Big News!

First of all thanks for all the suggestions. I have already set-up a file and will refer to it as we move down the road.

Now for the news.Although all of the i's have not been dotted and the t's crossed, we are real close. So close in fact that we are going to start building the hull immediately. They willstart to clean and wax the mold tomorrow.

If you guys want to put your two cents in about the interior design, now is the time. Someone has to get a drawing up quickly or it's going to be just me and the NA. I am already trying to figure out how I can bolt the head to the cabin roof.

I know there are some great ideas out there. If you guys want to help with Humpty Dumpty now is the time.

Thanks!

Art

[ralphk]

Art:

I have been following this thread with great interest.
Loosely, I had been considering upgrading out of my 97X in two years, but may find I'm not be that patient if there's viable product next summer.

My calendar has an east coast trip planned to Boston in May. It's probably too premature to ask, but is your timeline for the 3 demonstrator prototypes going to be ready for May 1st?

As an aside, I'd be willing to support the design effort with some 2d drawing.
No CATIA expertise to offer here, but I did run Autocad and Microstation years ago.

Ralph k.
Hakuna Matata 97X

[AWKIII]

Hi Ralph.

There will be two boats built simultaneously.

The One Design Racer with the new open transom cockpit and the Cruiser. We spent a lot of time yesterday on the phone and it looks like both boats will be ready in 60 to 120 days max. The ODR is a simple build as the tooling is complete and ready to roll.

The Cruiser will start with the same hull and deck molds. The first thing we will do is increase the freeboard on the boat. She is now pretty low to the water so we have a lot to work with. From there we will move to the deck mold. We will essentially add height to the existing coach roof and re-position the ports. We will also extend the length to allow for more room below. We need to come up with 18 to 24" depending on where you are inside. No one forsees a problem getting 6' plus.

If you would like to put up a simple line drawing that would be great! We do not need anything elaborate. All I want to do is be able to determine the length of the interior and what and where things will go. Furnishings don't need to be 3D. Just simple squares, rectangles, circles, etc.

Regards,

Art

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I'm working on a quick line drawing that will be the starting point of the ideas I have, but I thought I would post this info right away as it will later this weekend before I have the drawing finished.

My target boat that is defining much of the concept is the Dragonfly 35 Trimaran. This is a similar length boat and the Tri's always have narrow beam center hulls with the same proportions we are talking about here. In particular I like the interior of the Dragon fly much better then the Corsair.

Here is the link to the boats website, http://www.dragonfly.dk/boats/dragonfly ... ation.aspx

Just picture this boat without the ama's


The boats layout




Small interior shots


Looking aft inside, notice the flip up supports for the removable bench on the starboard side of the table.


The interior panaramic tour
http://www.dragonfly.dk/flash/panoramas ... modal=true

Buried in this flash photo gallery are some very informative interior construction shots.
Notice the real galley, a large seating area and folding table, the head forward that is walked through to the vee berth, real cabin doors, a nice yet compact nav station, all very well executed in a very narrow hull.

http://www.dragonfly.dk/flash/photo_gal ... modal=true

It has clearly defined functional areas that don't interfere with each other.

Nice swoopy backrest for sitting on the rail and front windshield


A very nice cockpit layout


Imagine an internal outboard well here


Wait for it, there is an interior picture in this series

[Love MACs]

That is really very nice and probably a lot more than we can expect in accents. But the concept, with the narrow hull and all is really workable! I like the way it flows.


Allan

[delevi]

You just had to post the Dragonfly 35, didn't you
I'm totally in love with that boat. How about it Art, a DF 35 replica for $50K??? Just kidding.

[ROAD Soldier]

Ok now I am seeing the same O, same O, do do that is already out there. If someone wants a mini yacht then they will not buy a Macgregor, they will buy one of the other dime a dozen brands that are out there that are already into that for their interiors’. The object here is to appeal to largest spectrum of people. The only way I know to do that is to make the boat ultra utility to individual tastes.

Think of two advertisements for this boat and have them both fit. First advertisement is a couple out using their Macgregor for Moose Hunting down the Yukon River in Alaska, throwing the dead Moose down into a large open interior that is all plastic. Blood is everywhere and at the end of the trip after the Moose is easily haled out by using an optional wench and slide compo made by an aftermarket company the interior is easily washed down with a hose without have to take anything out, and then the water is pumped out by bilge pumps. Second advertisement involves a couple vacationing in the Bahamas with their Macgregor with a plush interior with teak floors, shelves, and molding all either as an option or made by aftermarket companies.

Now how about a combination of both advertisements. Picture using the boat for duck hunting on a cold Autumn Day in Minnesota. The mast is laid down and comoflogue netting is laid over it to the water making for a great duck blind. The interior has berths, heater, head, and complete galley for the extended hunting trip.

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Just to clarify, I don't refer to the Dragonfly 35 pictures for fit and finish comparisons, it is a $400,000 boat after all. A boats layout and it's fit and finish are two completely different things. You could just as easily execute the Dragonfly 35 layout in plastic and particle board as in all that nice teak. For this exercise ignore the yachty look (gorgeous as it is) and simply look at the location, size, and funcionality of the interior parts and pieces.

I refer to it as a mid 30' narrow beam hull that has a very workable interior layout that includes all the things that have been mentioned above. A true galley, a true head, a spacious seating area, two full double berths, and some interior partitions for at least a bit of privacy. It does all this very well while maintaining distinct area's for each function. As far as I am concerned the worst layout possible in a boat is the early M style of one big open space that places all the functions that need to occur in the same space. You can't even sit at the table while anyone cooks or needs to go forward to the head in that layout. Just my opinion, I'm sure those who own them strongly disagree (no need to fire back), I'm simply saying what I feel works best when a family or multiple people are on board. I do however see why Roger quickly moved on to the later M layout that brings separation to the various functional areas.

I think you could strap that Moose to the Dragonfly 35 table quite nicely for cleaning and that big galley would let you cook it up as you work. Make sure you order the optional vinyl cushions.

[AWKIII]

Hi Duane.

Thanks!

You have nailed it with the Dragonfly 35!

Actually, there are only a few major differences between the 33 and the Dragonfly:

1. The Dragonfly has an additional 2' in length.

2. The Dragonfly has a plumb bow which provides more waterline.

3. The Dragonfly carries it's beam further aft.

Obviously, there is nothing that can be done about the length difference and bow. The plumb bow provides a little more living area down below. As far as the beam, this is a moot point as far as the interior. My guess is you folks will use the aft part of the boat for a double berth. A few inches either way isn't going to make a difference especially at or near the transom.

Take a look at the galley table on the Dragonfly. It is built on top of the keel casing. The 33' has an almost identical set-up. This needs to be taken into consideration when you start the design.

Thanks again, Duane.

Regards,

Art

[ralphk]

Art/Duane:

Scale drawing is posted

I'm a complete newbie to posting pictures on the forum : bear with me

Test image posting




I also have the Microstation source file and an Acrobat .pdf.
Just PM me and I can send it as an attachment.

Ralph k.