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Has anyone installed a purchase system for jib sheets so as not to have to use the winches and cleat off near the helm? I am considering doing this and use Bill's EZ cleats with a 4:1 purchase fo the sheets. I believe there is enough room for the blocks to clear everything and not hit the faileads, and I believe enough overall clearance with the RF setup and all. I haven't heard of anyone doing this however. Is there a flaw in this arrangement I am not seeing? Would be nice to know before I start cutting lines and buying blocks and more line. Thanks.

Leon

Huge flaws.

4:1 purchase means you'll also need to have sheets four times as long. I would guess as much as 100 feet each. So 200' of line @ say 1.39/ft plus say another 80-100 each for 4:1 purchase tackle, you're running close to half a "'boat buck".

Also, when you let the jib/genny sheets run during a tack, you need virtually no friction to allow the sail to pass through the slot unaided except by the wind. As it is, in light winds frequently the sheets don't run freely and foul.

If you want to control the sheets from the helm, install a couple winches on the stern quarters. This has been done by several owners. Lewmars just like the ones that come with the boat run under $100/each; say another $25 each for cam cleats to go with them, about half your proposed solution.

The only reason I haven't done it myself is I want to do it really right and I'm holding out for self tailers. These typically run something over $300/each, but the project continues to bubble toward the top of the list.

Thanks Chip. I had a feeling there were issues with this idea. My thought was to have the blocks run between the jib cars and the genoa coaming where they would cleat off. This is for a standard jib, not a genoa. I'm guessing the line length would increase about 40-50 feet per sheet. I don't see how the blocks would hang on anything in this position, unless, of course, the space of the run between jib cars & genoa coaming is not enough, which would then scrap the whole idea since the blocks would run out of room. Stern winches would be nice, but it's just crowding an already crowded cockpit. Impossible to install on an M without cutting into the hull to through-bolt them and nice ones are about $300+ as you mentioned.

Leon

Delevi
Jib sheets with blocks on the clew to give a 2:1 purchase….They might be work, bring the jib around with the blocks….and lots sheet in the cockpit on the low side.
I noted this ingenious self-tacking system on a similar sized boat The Merit 25 with the "Rocky Rail" self-tacking jib system, named “Twilight Zone”.



Multi clew headsail for Self-Tacking Jib #3 comparing to old #3

Leon,
I mostly agree w/Chip, but TT's idea of a block at the clew seems interesting. I feel the main issue is permitting the sheet to run free, and QUICKLY. The 2:1 would improve that part of the equation and I think that purchase would be ample. Figure dead-ending each sheet at the mast, or maybe at their respective chainplates. But, the main problem w/TT's plan ...
that clew requires a large, dbl-block, which would physically HAMMER deck, mast and lifelines! ...
and you too, if you ever needed to go foward~!

Unless the standing end of your 2:1 system is "dead ended" at the same place as the sheet fairlead, you're sacrificing some portion of your 2:1 purchase. Attach it at the mast and you'll have no better than 1.5:1.

Even if 2:1 I'm not sure it's enough for foresail sheets. Standard jib in moderate winds, no problem. The winch is the equivalent of 4:1 and in stiff winds with the 150 genny I think you need every bit of that.

Dead-ending at the jib car would be fine. The real problem is that block flying around from the clew. I agree on the genny, it needs more uumph in heavy winds, but 2:1 would be ample purchase for a jib, IMO. I used the factory jib, sans winch, for a couple of years on SFB before adding the furler with Genoa.

Beyond the "flying block" issue, I still suspect that just the doubled length of line to run would be a lot to deal with. I could envision testing the concept by just leading test sheets directly through the clew grommet - suffering extra friction for sure, but still testing the concept.

Test feasibility using the jib sheet for one side and the Genoa sheet for the other side (doubling sheet-lengths without buying more rope). Seems from here that the sheets wouldn't run free (enough) if both went through the same grommet. Maybe a short line-loop thru the clew could handle one of the sheets. I think SFB wind forces might serve adequately for pulling the jib across the bow, with complications of added friction -
after all, it's only in the higher winds that the extra purchase "buys anything!"

I was thinking of adding blocks to the jib clew to give 2:1. I'd attach the end to another pulley on the track. It wouldn't require twice the line length only an addition length equal to twice the travel of the jib clew. My E-scow had a setup like this and it's nice to not have to use a winch. The one reason I don't do it is because you have those blocks on the clew of the jib and if things start flapping it's no fun to get spanked by one of those blocks.

Daniel,

Not sure I understand ... but I guess you mean that you leave both jib sheets cleated? Or do you just allow the lazy sheet to pull tight against a stopper knot?

Argh! Nothing is ever easy. All the sudden the winches don't seem so bad

On a positive note, I added a 6:1 purchase for my ballasted DB. Now I can pull it up without the winch with relative ease. If it ever gets stuck (it did before) the winch would give me a 24:1, which should do the job.

Delevi
Ratchet Block of Harken Designed advantage could improve sheet control. Maybe a custom designed Cleat from Bill at Boats 4 Sail, including a ratchet block?


Jib and genoa sheets are another possible application for ratchet blocks. They are often used on small catamarans and dinghies like Flying Juniors where the sheet is hand-held. More and more, larger one-designs like J/24s are putting ratchets in the genoa system to facilitate hand-holding the sheets.
While you don't see them used in this fashion as often, ratchets are perfect for release applications as well. Two good examples are traveler control lines on larger boats and genoa lead adjusters. Neither is typically hand-held, but in a blow they can both get away from the trimmer as he eases the cars to keep the boat on its feet. A logical extension of this use is on spinnaker pole adjuster systems or the back line of asymmetrical spinnakers.
By allowing you to hand-hold sheets and ease highly-loaded sheets and control lines, ratchet blocks facilitate quicker, more precise trimming. They make your boat faster, and help your crew keep things under control.

It wouldn't require twice the line length only an addition length equal to twice the travel of the jib clew.

Not exactly. You need to go from the standing end the farthest distance to the clew and back, which for the leeward side sheet must wrap around the shrouds, around the mast and then approximately the length of the foot. So the portion you don't have to double is approximately the distance from the genny car to the winch or cleat, a few wraps around the winch and enough running end to grab onto.

Not sure I understand ... but I guess you mean that you leave both jib sheets cleated? Or do you just allow the lazy sheet to pull tight against a stopper knot?

I'd still uncleat one side. I'm having trouble remembering exactly how it was on my E-scow, but I visualize the sheet being tied to a becket on the jib block on the car, going forward through the block on the clew (one block for the starboard sheet and one for the port sheet), back through the block on the car and back to the winch or cleat.

Maybe it would be better to tie the sheet to the nearby stanchion (instead of the becket) since I've always wondered if the jib tracks were too far inboard. This would effectively move the direction the sheet pulls outward.

I still don't know if I'd do it because of the flying block effect if the sail is flapping.

Not exactly. You need to go from the standing end the farthest distance to the clew and back, which for the leeward side sheet must wrap around the shrouds, around the mast and then approximately the length of the foot. So the portion you don't have to double is approximately the distance from the genny car to the winch or cleat, a few wraps around the winch and enough running end to grab onto

Yes Chip I see what you mean. Thanks for the correction.

Here's a question I'd posted on the Macgregorowners forum-

On my M-25, I have cam cleats and fairleads on cars on the sides of the cockpit coaming which allows the Genoa sheets to be run outside the shrouds and goes over the lifeline.

Yesterday, I sailed with my working jib (yep, using hank-on head sails). I used the same routing for my WJ, and felt like it left a pretty large slot. Running it under the lifelines, seemed to bind up the sheets on the life line.

I'm thinking the boat would sail better with a narrower slot between the jib and main. I could run the sheets inside the shrouds and over or under the life line to get it in a little tighter, or would I be best to run a separate set of cars and cam cleats on top of the cabin?

Opinions/tips, anyone?