batteries - charge or replace?

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats
DaveC426913
Admiral
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:05 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Toronto Canada
Contact:

batteries - charge or replace?

Post by DaveC426913 »

Six weeks ago or so I drained my batteries by leaving something plugged in. They've never been the same since. I left them to charge from shore power (30A) for a week or so, but it only had enough charge to get me out of the marina - not enough to bring me back in. Before heading out, I checked voltage, and it was a nice 13.4V on both batteries.

One is a deep cycle marine and the other is standard. No idea which switch setting is which - I generally turn my switch to 'both' when heading out.

It happened again last night. It sounded fine when I went out, but two hours later, when I went to start it up to come in, I got nothing - just a click. I had not been running anything while out - no lights, radio or other equipment. I sailed back in to the marina, but - before committing mayhem with the other boats by sailing into my slip - I tried my engine one last time. It started up.

This suggests to me that it's less a problem with charge than with a bad connection (or both).

I've pulled both batteries out and am prepared to replace them with new ones, but now I'm wondering if that will even fix the problem.

P.S. My wiring is terrifying. All those old cracked wires lying in the bilge - it's a wonder I don't electrocute myself every time I step aboard. Maybe I should fix that up before eyeing the batteries as the culprit...

P.P.S. any marine electricians in the GTA area who feel like making some $$ rewiring a :macx: ? :)
User avatar
Sumner
Admiral
Posts: 2375
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:20 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26S
Location: SE Utah
Contact:

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by Sumner »

As long as you are going to replace them (sounds like that needs to happen) I'd put in two identical batteries. They will charge better that way.

The motor will start just fine off a 'deep cycle' and if they are a 12 volt 'deep cycle' they still aren't a 'true' deep cycle. At this point you might consider putting in two 6 volt real deep cycle batteries as you will get more bang for the buck, the wiring will be simpler and they will charge and discharge more efficiently. A good understanding of this here.....

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/deep_cycle_battery

Sumner

============================
1300 miles to the Bahamas and back -- 2015

The MacGregor 26-S

The Endeavour 37

Trips to Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links
User avatar
kadet
Admiral
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:51 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Brisbane, Australia. 2008M "Wicked Wave" Yamaha T60

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by kadet »

The only way to know for sure is to take the batteries out and do a load test. One total discharge is not normally fatal to a deep cycle battery but some more info would be helpful.

What was the terminal voltage of the drained batteries at?
What type and capacity are the batteries? E.G Deep Cycle is 100AH AGM Start is 720 Calcium Marine Start
How old are they?
Do you charge them together or separately?
What kind of 30A charger did you use? (30A is a lot of charging current for a battery and if it not designed or rated for it you can easily destroy a battery)
User avatar
sailboatmike
Admiral
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Australia

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by sailboatmike »

Sounds like the batteries are shot, they charge but dont hold charge.

If run dead flat and left that way for any period it will kill them quick smart.

I know I just payed out $400 for new batteries, as said before get two identical batteries is you plan on hooking them together.

I run 2 x 720cca 105ah duel purpose marine batteries and have a spare 100ah deep cycle not connected to those other two for running other stuff.

Spend the time fixing the wiring, many previous owners know less than nothing about running wires and use any old wire and dont use connectors, many of the additional wires in mine had the wires just twisted together and covered by insulation tape.

Im just starting to get on top of my electrics now but it has taken many hours and lots of research to get it done
DaveC426913
Admiral
Posts: 1912
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:05 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Toronto Canada
Contact:

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by DaveC426913 »

Well, I just hauled them off to Crappy Tire to test and presumably replace.

Turns out, they are fully charged and in fine condition. I can even provide the test results.

So, that narrows the fault down to connections, wiring or motor.
My money's on connections.


BTW, specs:
Starter:
No: 24M5, Series 3600, Rating (CCA): 24M-550, Rating (CA): 650
Deep Cycle:
Part: DC24, Rating (CCA): 500, Rating (CA): 625, Rating (RC): 150

I know CCA is "cold-cranking amps" but I don't know why they aren't consistently labelled. They're both the same brand (Marine Master).
User avatar
kadet
Admiral
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:51 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Brisbane, Australia. 2008M "Wicked Wave" Yamaha T60

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by kadet »

Any batter that lists CCA and CA instead of AH is always sus as a true deep cycle. A DC24 should be about 70AH and weigh 20KG. If does not meet those specs it is not a true deep cycle and probably a dual purpose battery.

In either case they are probably different chemistries and should be charged separately. Also 30A is why too much for wet cell or calcium batteries of those capacities you could boil off the electrolyte. If use in deep cycle mode they should be restricted to 0.3C or about 20A in the DC24s case at 70AH. If they are in float standby use the current doesn't matter, likewise if they are AGMs.
User avatar
Bilgemaster
First Officer
Posts: 467
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:03 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Woodbridge, Virginia--"Breakin' Wind" 2001 26X, Honda BF50A 50hp engine

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by Bilgemaster »

DaveC426913 wrote:Six weeks ago or so I drained my batteries by leaving something plugged in. They've never been the same since. I left them to charge from shore power (30A) for a week or so, but it only had enough charge to get me out of the marina - not enough to bring me back in. Before heading out, I checked voltage, and it was a nice 13.4V on both batteries.

One is a deep cycle marine and the other is standard. No idea which switch setting is which - I generally turn my switch to 'both' when heading out.

It happened again last night. It sounded fine when I went out, but two hours later, when I went to start it up to come in, I got nothing - just a click. I had not been running anything while out - no lights, radio or other equipment. I sailed back in to the marina, but - before committing mayhem with the other boats by sailing into my slip - I tried my engine one last time. It started up.

This suggests to me that it's less a problem with charge than with a bad connection (or both).

I've pulled both batteries out and am prepared to replace them with new ones, but now I'm wondering if that will even fix the problem.

P.S. My wiring is terrifying. All those old cracked wires lying in the bilge - it's a wonder I don't electrocute myself every time I step aboard. Maybe I should fix that up before eyeing the batteries as the culprit...

P.P.S. any marine electricians in the GTA area who feel like making some $$ rewiring a :macx: ? :)
Brother, have I been there too--up to my armpits in a nightmare nest of half-ass half-done PO wiring.

First of all, whatever Sumner may suggest you may confidently assume is probably a generally sound idea. Though I, like you, also have mixed-type batteries hooked up and used and charged together through a manual 1-2-Both-Off Perko switch. So far they seem to have been coexisting quite happily...though these two very different batteries might romantically be said to lead a charmed life together as far as batteries go, being more-or-less continuously hooked up to a nice warm 50 watt solar array and regulator when on the trailer, kept pretty much happily tip-top thereby. Then again, they've not yet sailed together to the Bahamas like Sumner's: these are day sailors. Yours' mileage may vary too.

It's not clear to me if you've hauled yours in to an auto parts joint for a proper "load test" (just a voltage reading won't do: that could just be a quickly dissipating "surface charge"), but if not, that trip should be step one. If either's bad, replace both as Sumner suggests. If both are OK, you need to "embrace the rat nest"...probably a fine idea anyhow: at least you'll soon learn where the worst-smelling smoked turds are. For this voyage of discovery you might do well to pick up a copy of Don Casey's great little book, Sailboat Electrics Simplified, and properly square at least some of the obvious issues away yourself, if only to get a sense of things in there. I bought a few marine electrical guides to help me deal with my own 26X, which had a massive nest of "mysteries" left half-installed or still new-in-box by her previous owner, but it was Casey's book that I kept coming back to and was the most help. It's the one still on board. You can pick up used copies for about five bucks plus shipping all day long right here. I like to think it kept me from doing anything too idiotic or outright dangerous.

Happy hunting!
User avatar
Highlander
Admiral
Posts: 5995
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:25 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Maccutter26M 2008 75HP Merc. 4/S Victoria BC. Can. ' An Hileanto'ir III '
Contact:

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by Highlander »

If u do not have one get urself a smart two bank marine battery charger either installed or a portable one
I have a 2 bank smart marine charger installed in my boat 6amps to start bat & 6amps to house dual 6volt golf cart batts combined into a battery combiner which will split or serve the 3rd battery bank 3amps each side with the throw of a batt switch & I also have a second portable 6amp marine smart portable battery charger which I can use separately on the 3rd battery bank or anywhere else for that matter , also have a booster pack for emergency's & a genset 1000 if anchored & working on 3 solar panels to install
Anyways I,m hoping I,ve got all the bases covered for cruising
J 8)
PS I got 9yrs out of my batts so I,m satisfied that I had to replace them this yr lol & I,m trying to catch up with sumner :)
User avatar
NiceAft
Admiral
Posts: 6710
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:28 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Upper Dublin,PA, USA: 2005M 50hp.Honda4strk.,1979 Phantom Sport Sailboat, 9'Achilles 6HP Merc 4strk

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by NiceAft »

I am taking a different approach to this. Since both batteries are fully charged, and all the previous post make good sense, lets approach this differently.

Do you use dielectric grease on the connections to the cathode(+) and anode(-). Poor conductivity can be a real problem.

What I have been told by my marine mechanic is to get rid of the nuts that hold all wires onto the anode and cathode, and replace them with thumb screws nuts. Boy that appears silly, but he was serious. It makes it more efficient to tighten.

I admit that starting at the dock, and not starting after awhile on the water sounds like a charging problem, but if the bouncing around loosens a connection, might that make low enough conductivity to just get clicks instead of ignition.

If I am completely wrong, or even just a little, post away. I won't take it personally.

Ray
User avatar
Highlander
Admiral
Posts: 5995
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:25 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Maccutter26M 2008 75HP Merc. 4/S Victoria BC. Can. ' An Hileanto'ir III '
Contact:

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by Highlander »

Have u tested & checked ur alternator output for charging if there r no loose or corroded or broken connections , is the alt. belt driven !
have u removed ur battery "perkco" switch & checked for loose or corroded connections behind it ? check all main ground connections between eng. & batts
check all ign. switch wiring & safety lanard switch wiring
J 8)
User avatar
Azzarac
First Officer
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:31 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: "Chameleon" in the Middle of the Mid-West w/Honda BF50
Contact:

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by Azzarac »

All the above posts are valid and NiceAft touches on a good point in that a loose connection or corroded cable may get bounced around or overheated enough to loose contact only to settle or cool after a period of time and re-connect the circuit. Also, I never use the "both" setting on the Perko. I don't even think it should be an option. If you combine both batteries and one of those batteries are bad, the bad one will suck the juice out of the good battery pretty quick leaving you dead in the water. At least that is how mine is set up. You are much better off draining one batt and then switching over to your reserve batt.
User avatar
Sumner
Admiral
Posts: 2375
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:20 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26S
Location: SE Utah
Contact:

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by Sumner »

Azzarac wrote:.. I don't even think it should be an option. If you combine both batteries and one of those batteries are bad, the bad one will suck the juice out of the good battery pretty quick leaving you dead in the water. At least that is how mine is set up. You are much better off draining one batt and then switching over to your reserve batt.
True that a bad battery could drain a good one, but your batteries are going to last longer tied together. Will charge faster and more efficiently tied together.

It is pretty rare for a battery to just suddenly go dead. I've never had that happen. If it is a worry and you can't pull start the outboard then think about taking a battery/jump pack along. In the long run I think there are more positives to having them tied together than not,

Sumner

============================
1300 miles to the Bahamas and back -- 2015

The MacGregor 26-S

The Endeavour 37

Trips to Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links
User avatar
kadet
Admiral
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:51 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Brisbane, Australia. 2008M "Wicked Wave" Yamaha T60

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by kadet »

True that a bad battery could drain a good one, but your batteries are going to last longer tied together. Will charge faster and more efficiently tied together.

It is pretty rare for a battery to just suddenly go dead. I've never had that happen. If it is a worry and you can't pull start the outboard then think about taking a battery/jump pack along. In the long run I think there are more positives to having them tied together than not,
Very true a 12v battery is already 6 small batteries in series anyway we just call them cells in this case. So I treat 2 x 12v batteries as a single 12 cell battery or 2 x 6v batteries as a single 6 cell battery just like any regular 12v battery 8) .

If you have two identical batteries purchased at the same time tied together from the start with equal sized correct cabling,you can just treat it as one big battery. If a cell dies in either it likely the rest are not far off dieing so change both again, as Sumner says benefit far outweighs any disadvantages. The important part here is correct cabling and setup so every cell is equalized during the discharge recharge cycle so they don't get out of sync with some cells being over and under charged. This is what can lead to premature failure.

But all this applies only to identical batteries tied together from new, different chemistries and different sizes and ages should not be done in this way.

The reasons to do it this way are many but mainly for me it is weight and ease of maintenance once set up.

My new setup when the current single 125AH AGM dies is going to be 2 x 125AH AGMs in parallel for 250AH of total storage. Each 125 weighs about 37kg the max I can move around the boat and fit in the battery bay easily on my own. A single 250AH weighs 72kg which is impossible for me to move without lifting gear and is far too big to fit in the :macm:s battery locker.
User avatar
sailboatmike
Admiral
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Australia

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by sailboatmike »

In the not so far off future we will be using lippo batteries and be able to fit a three or four hundred amps of storage in battery lockers for no net gain in weight over the lead acids.

And the best part is we will be able to recharge them in next too no time as lippo can take stupid high recharge rates that one only dreams of with lead acid or gel cell
User avatar
Bilgemaster
First Officer
Posts: 467
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:03 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Woodbridge, Virginia--"Breakin' Wind" 2001 26X, Honda BF50A 50hp engine

Re: batteries - charge or replace?

Post by Bilgemaster »

In the meantime, while Flash Gordon pulls on his manly tights and sorts out those Wonder Electrons, my hunch is that pretty much any trailer sailor will find one of these Harbor Freight 5-in-1 Portable Power Pack with Jump Start things useful...especially if you've maybe got a dodgy battery or alternator.

Image

You could "go modular" with the 3-in-1 or 4-in-1 variants, and get the other doodads separately, but if you want all the bells and whistles in one easy-to-carry and stow package--the jump start, a little 200 watt 120 AC inverter to run small AC stuff stuff, a USB charge port, dual 12V DC ciggy lighter style outlets and even a tire pump (which is the feature I seem to use most), then this is what you want. Just make sure and test ALL the features as soon as you get it, so you can get an exchange unit if you happen to get a dog. Build quality on these things seems a little haphazard. In fact, this is one of those few items where you might want to splurge for that 2-year protection plan they offer. Still, a marvelously useful bit of kit to have if you get a good one.

I also got one of their Lithium Ion Jump Starter and Power Packs when it was on sale. It's quite nice too and is VERY compact in its nice little case. I tote that around in the Amphicar in its little tool pack. Still, the 5-in-1 is my go-to for the Mac and in general.
Post Reply