Who would build their own if the plans were available ?

[Dnomyar]

Hi all

I'm a long time Mac enthusiast, long time boatless.

For a while I have been 'developing the idea of getting plans made up for a Plywood and Epoxy version of a Mac. Obviously, the different materials would produce a different looking product - but the capabilities and performance would be comparable.

With the help of an enthusiastic professional engineer, we got a long way down the design spiral, and with a bit of computer magic, illustrated the concept.

I have been trying to drum up the case for the project ( even got a http://schoolroad.weebly.com ) with the 'sales pitch'

It occurred to me that current owners/enthusiasts would be best people to discuss the concept with, and see what interest there is in the concept. I would be interested in your thoughts.



Continuing on, the big advantage of 'build your own' would have to be the personalisation opportunities. I always fancied an internal Nav station for motoring in inclement weather. I also got enthusiastic about water ballast that could hold a collapsible tank of 200 litres of fresh water. I imagine you guys would have some suggestions of your own.

I look forward to any ideas and suggestions about the possibility.

[Whipsyjac]

My "suddenly don't need to work for a living anymore" idea is to get a cheap used without motor and cut the deck off and remove the liner. Then work out a center cockpit or pilot house superstructure.

Advantages are:

1. No need to re-invent the wheel...just the car rolling on it so to speak

2. proven hull-the hull sails and planes

3. parts-you can start with hull, centerboard, rudders, ballast tank system....as much or as little as you wish

4. Time.....oh these projects take a long time, but just imagine you're already at working hull stage


A thought on your design, not to be a downer but I don't like your daggers...I really like scudder hulls and twin daggers are a good idea but yours being on the outer chines will be angled inward instead of the classic outward of a scudder. I'm not sure how to precisely state what's happening with the hydro dynamics but I'm pretty sure the leeward dagger will end up at the wrong angle when beating to windward ie. If your boat is heeled 15degrees your dagger will have the same lift as if a was heeled 30 degrees. Your windward dagger would have an advantageous angle of attack but it might also cause problems being too far from the center of the water line when heeled.

I really like the work you've done and I think the design goals are admirable. I believe form follows function and wonder what the optimum size of your boat would be? For all dimensions to maintain ratio you're designing a boat with a minimum 10% greater headroom which for all intensive purposes would require a 10% increase in almost all dimensions. The 10% would solve problems of berth length and settee comfort.

The 10% increase in beam would present a problem with trailering, it could be ignored in this one dimension but as your height above the water line increases in relation to your beam you increase the amount of roll.

I have kids and a business, I don't have time... I met a guy who built a beautiful sailboat from a plan. His budget was $50k timeline was 5yrs, it took him 10yrs and $100k to build his boat. My father in-law loved the sea and boats all his life(he's 80) and he's often said there's 2 kinds of boating enthusiasts those who love building them and those who love sailing them. The guy I mentioned already has the itch to build another one. I have the itch to sail faster. But I do enjoy crunching numbers and sketching plans.

I see some real work and thought went into what you're doing and I applaud you, but I see a lot of bargains on craigslist and some inexpensive local yacht shares so I don't think I'd be boatless long if I had to part with Whipsyjac.

Willy

[Russ]

I had a long post that seems to have disappeared and I don't have the energy to retype it.

This is very intriguing. I like the looks of it. Fresh water idea is clever.
My concern is cost, weight and complexity. The beauty of a Mac or Tattoo is it's prebuilt and mostly a blank canvas and very cheap.

Would this be like a kit car? How much work and mess would be involved to build it?

[Dnomyar]

Good to hear from you guys. There is lots to think about from some of your comments.

Just briefly "off the cuff" first comment - I do picture it as a kit job.

The comments about the length of time to build strikes a real chord - I have been there.

After having done some smaller boats, and getting all the CNC work done was a a real time saver.

I am a fan of making machines do the work. But, it can cost half as much again for a router to cut out a sheet of plywood, so I would reserve some parts for full routing, and in others, create a template for the builder to run their own router or jigsaw around.

For examply, the panels for the hull sides, could just be a 6mm mdf pattern for a handheld jigsaw, but the small, fiddly interior work would be several auto routed sheets of plywood. The prototype build would be needed to find the best balance.

Ideally, there would even be slots on all pieces to match them perfectly, and do away with as much 'lining up' and measuring as possible.

This has been designed as a 28 footer - in an attempt to squeeze as much room into an acceptable trailering length as possible.

[Dnomyar]

"twin daggers are a good idea but yours being on the outer chines will be angled inward "

The good news is, that these daggerboards are perfectly vertical.

The designer and I spent hours discussing the pros-and cons of different configurations.

The priorities got listed like this.
1) Maximum interior room
2) Folding boards ( like the first macgregors) for more efficient interior usage.
3) did I mention interior room

There was talk of doing one daggerboard, and this could be an option for any builder to choose.

I am intrigued by the two board solution for the moment.

[Whipsyjac]

Raymond,(please excuse my presumption here)

So we're thinking the same way about the length. The practical standing headroom in an is 66" so 72" is about 8.5% bigger and that would mean a 26' boat 8.5% bigger which is 28.2'.

I'm very interested in the cabin/cockpit layout especially for foul weather driving. The sketches I saw on your sight looked like a classic sloop with rear cockpit. The center cockpit(hair brained, daydream) idea I had necessitates the cockpit permanently double as settee. The raised skipper position would create the headroom for the head under the console.

I looked at a lot of info from Woods designs and several DIY sites that sell plans and was reassured to see that there are some design problems which are a real stumper for everyone.

My biggest stumbling block right now is stumbling seniors. My father in law and my grandfather are both 80 and while they still enjoy boating getting in and out of the Mac and going below/using the head are difficult things for seniors. It would be nice to see a plan that makes an easy access boat. I've seen some boats that meet this criteria but they're generally power boats with little space to sleep.

Do you have a sketch of the cabin layout? I didn't see a simple one when I followed the link, mostly just CAD drawings.

I like the kit idea, it would be a real time-saver.

Willy

[Hamin' X]

Russ, go to your control panel and click on "Manage Drafts". It might be there, if you accidentally clicked on "Save draft".

~Rich

I had a long post that seems to have disappeared and I don't have the energy to retype it.

[Russ]

Good idea Rich. Wasn't there. I think it was user error. Too fast closing the browser.

[Wayne nicol]

hey Ray,
good to see you here- see you have done a heap of work, since we last spoke,
i think your project is awesome- and i keep following it- is there some fresh design input.

awesome mate

[Dnomyar]

The interior room is a big consideration for all boats, but particularly for Mac 'lookalikes' - because that's what they specialise in,

I have some plan ideas for the interior, but they are 'beta' versions.

The final engineering will be putting ribs, bulkheads and beams all over the place, so it would be sensible to wait till they are finalised, so they can be built around.

The narrow "container' beam of these boats is also a big limitation.

From conversations with the designer, we managed to exceed most of the Mac interior measurements for a fair amount, just form a marketing competition aspect.

I have elected to go for a decent size head area, with toilet/shower combination - the comfort factor. I am not keen on heads under bunks etc.

I hope to post some more definitive interior specs in the near future - but the engineering will come first.

[Ixneigh]

Building anything from scratch would def be a no go for me. It's takes longer and costs more always. I could have built any number of sub 30 plywood boats I have drawn that would have been faster and a lot stronger then the M model I ended up buying. Plus it would have had a pilot house, proper shower and head, twin rudders and a unusual take on a centerboard that would not impact inside space since it was more like the swing keel of the earlier macs.
I would probably still be building it. It's resale value would be zero. Unless I found someone who wanted exactly what I did. A kit might be more attractive but it still takes a heap of time. Finishing anything decently is a pain. Fairing sanding fairing, I can't get a factory type finish on anything to save my hide! That's why I paint my mods and not use gel coat. And then custom rigging... Sails... This boat could easily cost 100,000 if you factored in time. Fine if your retired, but what if you are still working?
The design looks ok to my eye, don't much care for the twin boards. Don't really like the cabin lines looks to much like the tattoo 22 to me, but the hull looks nice. It would be a lot of effort just for two feet. To me anyway.
So no I would not be interested even as a really good kit. My days of fiberglassing large areas or whole boats inside and out are about over and I never enjoyed it in the first place. I hated the endless fairing. No matter how nice it turns out it's hard to sell a one off but it helps if it's a recognized designer. Lastly I assume to keep costs down this boat of yours will be plywood ? I love plywood but it's expensive in good quality. Really expensive. Even then it will still rot if left for a long time shut up tight. Minor hardware leaks become more then just annoyances since they will rot the fastening areas. Building in foam core would be great but cost a bundle.
There was a very good reason i bought an M even though it wasent exactly what I wanted.
Re cutting up an old x boat boy that sounds like a lot of work too.
Seems like many desire more headroom. Age old problem. You just can't get it in a small boat with shallow draft. Roger did an admirable job in the x and m but i think that's the outside limit in this size boat without looking really bad.
If more space is what you really need and you still insist on having a trailer boat, get a seaward 32. It will be cheaper then building in the long run.
Ix

[Wayne nicol]

but to answer your original question , Ray; yup i would build if plans were available- but thats my nature!
i know used boats are cheaper to buy, than to build a new one. but i do like the process- as you do too

however i wouldnt like to build and be boatless at the same time- thats why i am happy that i have the mac, while i am busy with other projects

[Whipsyjac]

Ixneigh,

You've made a lot of good points, a concise breakdown of why the boat market is the way it is.

For those who want to build (and there are many) a kit is a huge plus. My idea of redoing an is psychological. If you have a floating hull with the specifics of propulsion, steering, and ballast taken care of it would calm me down and help me be more patient with the process. Also keeping the rig would save a bundle in time and money. I'm not so naive as to think Roger didn't spend a lot of time on cabin layout etc. It would be the fun factor of designing and playing around without the stress of wondering if it will track straight and come back up when the wind knocks you down.

If I was doing a build it would probably be a large Cat from Woods Designs... The designer has a few shipyards with hull molds of his spec that would really give the project a big boost. Sort of a semi custom approach with a reputable name on the hull.

The question I ask myself is "am I going to end up with the same design as everyone else?, because it's the simplest solution to the collective problems inherent with a specific design"

I also like the Didi plans, don't think they offer kits though

So far I haven't even convinced my Admiral I should build a dinghy... She has all these logical arguments I can't get around... including 3 seasons with a $50 Walmart inflatable. A dinghy would be more important if we couldn't beach Whipsyjac, but with the boards up I can always anchor close enough that a few quick trips get us all ashore in a jiffy.

Well back to napkin engineering and daydreaming for me,

Willy

[mastreb]

The economics of building a boat are just not there.

Before I bought my new boat, I spoke with two designers all the way through to the quote phase, and the bottom line is that it costs $20/lb. to build a "cheap" boat and $30/lb. to build a luxury boat, with the average one-off construction coming in around $25/lb.

The MacGregor costs $7.50/lb. unpowered, or 1/3rd as much as you could possibly build for. It is the least expensive production boat I've ever heard of. Completely fit-out and powered it's $12.50 lb.

A Beneteau costs $15/lb. well fit-out and ready to go.

Also consider that a stitch-and-glue plywood copy of a MacGregor is going to weight at least 2X as much. The boat will perform dramatically differently because of that extra weight, requiring a larger motor and more sail area to match the performance. You can't make a boat that weighs less than a MacGregor--Roger tried taking a layer of glass off to make La Perla Noir lighter and it suffered from cracking in the deck.

I've spent a lot of time playing with the idea of building, but there needs to be a revolutionary new building methodology or material in order to make one-off production cost competitive with mass production.

Taking an existing hull and rebuilding it to fit your specifications probably makes the most sense.

[Crikey]

Reading this, just now, made me think of an 'uber-mod' idea that could play to the cost side, as well as address the immense effort required for a rebuild of this magnitude.
What if a second hull (preferably equal condition) was acquired and given the engineering to lock the two sterns or a spacer) absolutely together. At that point you'd have a miniature MacGregor 70 with a centre cockpit and two masts - to boot!
The picture gets interesting when you have two daggerboards (reverse one), removed steering, removed outboards, and some other solution to powering. At 52', nobody is planing anything! If desired, or when finished using you can separate and trailer the two packages home, or to individual docks.
Once had a 42' trimaran that I never built.

R.