MacGregorSailors.com

What's the SOP for the keel lock down bolt. I have been leaving it out, but water splashes in the open hole. After this past weekend I dont see myself ever putting it back in. Too hard to remove in a hurry if you needed to. I know some of you leave it in and lower the keel against it. But I think this is a bad idea, the PO did this and the bolt was bent and the hole in the hull was wallowed out. I am considering making plugs for the holes and leaving it at that.

Pete

A lot of people who sail shallow lakes like to leave the lockdown bolt out. But if you ever experience a knockdown, you'll have 500 pounds of free swinging iron headed at the bottom of your boat. It'll probably make quite an entrance as it enters the keel trunk, and I am sure it will not stop there.

I understand your thinking but lets look at it closer. A typical knockdown (if there is such a thing) I would take to be about 90 degs or maybe a bit more. At this angle I don't think you would have a problem. To get the keel to free fall back into the trunk you would have to be much futher over. Maybe someware around 130-140 degrees over. Which at that angle your going to be swamped anyway, unless your had the hatchs all locked down, which I doubt as macgregor hatches don't really latch closed, or at least not on my boat.

Pete

I never use my lockdown bolt, but I'm never in winds strong enough to make the boat lean anywhere near a knockdown condition. The lockdown bolt holes on my boat don't leak, but then again, my keel is a little bit swollen and that may be a factor. Some simple rubber plugs would probably be sufficient in your case.

I understand your position, Pete, but it's DEFINITELY possible to knock down a Venture passed the 90° mark. If you go over fast and far enough to get your sails wet, you are going to be in trouble if the sails are still secured in their cleats/winches. Do an internet search about a Venture 23 of Newport (named "Chiquita," if I remember correctly)(Great Lakes Sailor magazine??). This Venture 23, swing keel, was hit and knocked down by a sudden microburst. In the guy's article, he says that his sails hit the water, filled, and the boat ended up rolling belly-up. He had his lockdown bolt in place, so the keel stayed in the "down" position. The weight of the water-filled sails overpowered the ballast of the swing keel and held the boat upside down for quite a while. In fact, in the article, the owner of that boat writes that he climbed up on the hull, grabbed the keel, and tried to roll the boat back over like you do with the smaller centerboard boats---but it wouldn't budge under his effort.

The boat did eventually right itself, but the flotation had been removed and the boat filled with water and sank as it rolled back upright again. Don't worry, he raised the boat and repaired all of the water Damage.

Anyway, it doesn't take total inversion like "Chiquita" to cause damage. I my marina, we have a Catalina 25' with a swing keel that has been sitting on a cradle for a year because of keel trunk damage. The guy was raising his keel on his way into the marina, and the cable broke when the keel was about halfway up. The keel fell back against the trunk and cracked it pretty badly. More likely than not, if you get knocked down enough that your mast gets wet, your keel is going to swing back up into the boat. And if your keel has been re-laminated, and isn't swollen against the trunk at all, you have very little friction to slow all of that momentum down.

Use of the lockdown bolt is a boat owner's own choice; but never underestimate what can happen during a knockdown--especially when the keel isn't locked in place.

I never used it, and was outn in some fairly strong winds. Always sailed inland lakes, though; never on the ocean or Gulf. I got to the point where I trusted the boat would never go past 45 degress, and I don't think it ever did. Different conditions, different results, though.

I appear to be one of the lucky ones with a cast iron keel. No problems with laminated keels here. I would like to be able to lock it down but I want the option of raising it quickly if I need to. Have a bolt with a nut on the back would be very difficult to remove even in calm conditions. I may try to come up the a quick release pin setup.

Ahhhh yes, that's right, I forgot that you had the better keel in your boat.

There are quick release pins out there; push in, pull out. I have one on my boat.

By the way did you read my Trip Report From Wilmington to Southport. Had some rough weather on the return trip. The keel was rocking back and forth, smashing into the hull. I solved the problem by giving it a few cranks on the winch. I considered trying to put the bolt in but that would have been near imposable in those seas. I also wanted to be able to pull the keel up and beach it on one of the nearby islands if it got to bad, which I came very close to doing.

Pete

It would seem that this method could put tremendous shock loads on the lifting line, possibly leading to failure.

~Rich

I did consider this, but here is what I decided:

1. raise keel far enough that there was tension always on the cable, therefore no shock loads. This was easy as I could feel the shock on the cable before I raised it far enough, about 4 cranks.
2. I have a new cable, winch and custom attachment at keel. Its can easily handle the full momentum of the keel. Failure would have been certain with what was left of the original winch and cable.
3. Better to break the winch or cable then the hull.

Of course it it did break the cable it would probably swing down and smash the hull too. I just can't win.

Pete

Hmm, seems to me that to raise it far enough to prevent any shock loading, would move the MOR aft and at the same time, raise the COG. Glad that it works for you, but I think that I would look for a different alternative.

~Rich

Hamin' X wrote:It would seem that this method could put tremendous shock loads on the lifting line, possibly leading to failure.

~Rich

I don't think it will be a problem. Indeed, I think it is made for this. When going downwind you can also crank the keel up to lessen drag/increase speed. I used to crank mine up a ways when in shallow water or when the wind was very light and I wanted to induce some heel to increase the waterline/speed. I always cranked it up a turn or so to keep it off the bolt. You should also remember that this keel is submerged, and thus has a lot of resistance from simply being in the wtaer, and thus moves a lot more slowly than it would in free air. Ever tried throwing a bowling ball under water? Same concept. I don't think you will have any problems with this tactic; just make pre and post sail inspections of the keel end fitting on the cable. Even if it does break its not the end of the world and can be dealt with fairly easily.

ChockFullOnuts22 wrote:I never use my lockdown bolt, but I'm never in winds strong enough to make the boat lean anywhere near a knockdown condition. The lockdown bolt holes on my boat don't leak, but then again, my keel is a little bit swollen and that may be a factor. Some simple rubber plugs would probably be sufficient in your case.

I understand your position, Pete, but it's DEFINITELY possible to knock down a Venture passed the 90° mark. If you go over fast and far enough to get your sails wet, you are going to be in trouble if the sails are still secured in their cleats/winches. Do an internet search about a Venture 23 of Newport (named "Chiquita," if I remember correctly)(Great Lakes Sailor magazine??). This Venture 23, swing keel, was hit and knocked down by a sudden microburst. In the guy's article, he says that his sails hit the water, filled, and the boat ended up rolling belly-up. He had his lockdown bolt in place, so the keel stayed in the "down" position. The weight of the water-filled sails overpowered the ballast of the swing keel and held the boat upside down for quite a while. In fact, in the article, the owner of that boat writes that he climbed up on the hull, grabbed the keel, and tried to roll the boat back over like you do with the smaller centerboard boats---but it wouldn't budge under his effort.

The boat did eventually right itself, but the flotation had been removed and the boat filled with water and sank as it rolled back upright again. Don't worry, he raised the boat and repaired all of the water Damage.

Anyway, it doesn't take total inversion like "Chiquita" to cause damage. I my marina, we have a Catalina 25' with a swing keel that has been sitting on a cradle for a year because of keel trunk damage. The guy was raising his keel on his way into the marina, and the cable broke when the keel was about halfway up. The keel fell back against the trunk and cracked it pretty badly. More likely than not, if you get knocked down enough that your mast gets wet, your keel is going to swing back up into the boat. And if your keel has been re-laminated, and isn't swollen against the trunk at all, you have very little friction to slow all of that momentum down.

Use of the lockdown bolt is a boat owner's own choice; but never underestimate what can happen during a knockdown--especially when the keel isn't locked in place.

Actually, the keel was not locked down. It did swing back up into the well as the boat inverted but did no damage. I clawed at the few inches of board sticking out of the slot trying to get it out but I didn't stand a chance against 600lbs.

Here is a link to the original article -- I don't know how it ended up on LancerOwners.com. I had posted it on MacgregorOwners.com but it disappeared from there and showed up on CatalinaOwners.com. Then it disappeared from there. The cyber gods work in mysterious ways.
http://lancer.sailboatowners.com/index. ... Itemid=222

In spite of this misadventure I still do not use the lock down bolt, and I've gotten back into the habit of sailing her pretty hard. But my sailing is on an inland lake with lots of weeds and no docks deeper than 4 ft. I often have to raise and lower the keel several times to shed the cable of weeds. I do make sure to keep the hatches closed if I anticipate a lot of heeling. I ALWAYS have the mainsheet in my hand when sailing hard, ready for instant release. I have also installed a lot of sail controls to depower the rig when necessary. This includes downhauls, Cunninghams, a powerful outhaul, and single-line reefing set ups for both reefs all lead to the cockpit.

Henry Rodriguez
Chiquita
http://sports.webshots.com/slideshow/230613770IXBurv

heinzir wrote:I ALWAYS have the mainsheet in my hand when sailing hard,

This is an excellent piece of seamanship advice and something that I always practice. I also recommend a sailing glove, to prevent line burns. Additionally, I like to have the foresail sheet in a cam-cleat for quick release. I'd much rather shred a foresail, than get knocked down.

~Rich

Based on this discussion I am going to stay with no lock down bolt and plug the holes. I will use removable plugs and keep the bolt handy in case my views ever change. But for now I am just not seeing a compelling reason to ever lock it down. I also don't think its a good idea to leave the bolt in place and lower the keel against it. The bolt is too close to the fulcrum and the forces would be very high.

Pete