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5/32 forestay does require a little more tension but not much on the Mac.X or M as it resist less streach and wire is more ridgid. Common sence.
I don't use a mast raiseing Gin pole, tho I have a M gin pole.
Johnson quick release lever on backstay or headstay is all thats required for tension to pin the headstay.
Takes my Girlfriend and I to set up boat and launch in 15 min. and don't want any equipment added to take longer.
We been doing this for 4 years on my MacX and tho tuning the rig isn't perfect it is good enough to take a knock down without damage to rigging.
Adding a wood dowel 10 inches inside spreaders will save them from bending out of shape.
Having the Main up Hauled in tight while motor sailing is a great way to prevent roll movement when large powerboats pass leaving 4 ft. wake.
One needs to take these waves about 3 points off the bow (30-40 degrees) so you don't wip lash the main causeing tremendus strain on the standing riiging.
Just like you don't jibb the main in heavy winds.
Spare rigging is best done with Sta-lock or Norseman fittings as these don't require Tools to Swag.
If one ever has a standing wire failure, most likely the mast will fold in half, therefore spare wires won't help.
Haveing a 5/32 headstay 1x19 wire will make a diffrence in your safety.
Dave

delevi wrote:I switched to 5/32 on the forestay. Consequently, it sagged more than the 1/8. I compensated for this since I had a backstay rigged. Otherwise the 5/32 would require more shroud tension if you want the boat to point reasonably well.

Toggles: Absolutely. Mine didn't come rigged with a top toggle. Noticed damage to the forestay at the very top and had to replace. Not sure if it was from lack of a toggle or a kink caused from transport with the furler pulling on the cable. It looked like the top of the furler was cutting through the cable. Glad I caught it when I did. I found it sadly amusing that the CDI manual makes a big deal about how imperative it is to have toggles, yet the boat was rigged without it.

Exactly put, Dave, and Sum. Trying to get everybody “on the same page” here…

Cat wrote…

The 1/4 inch shroud at 300 pounds is relatively inelastic, while a one inch shroud would be floppy...

And I believe you are essentially saying the same thing, Leon.(?)

It is a false assumption, and I believe it is this assumption (that has been repeated here often enough) that has led to the false conclusion regarding upsizing the forestay being “bad” if the pound tension were maintained to that of the smaller-diameter wire. And the validity of the theory of “larger forestay diameter is not good” relies on this assumption being correct.

If 300 pounds of tension were applied to the ¼” and 1” wire, the elasticity would be the same for both if the tension were maintained. (Let’s say by, a free-hanging 300 lb weight).

In fact, if the ends were then fixed in space so as to maintain the 300 lbs of tension, then the one inch shroud would be less easily deflected sideways, not more easily deflected, because, clearly, it is much harder to stretch a one inch wire than a ¼ inch wire.

The amount of “elasticity” at any given tension is easily determined by applying a given sidewise force to a tensioned wire and measuring the amount of deflection that results. Note that this differs from “stretch”, which is the permanent elongation that happens in wire and does not contribute to (in fact detracts from) tension or elasticity.

To illustrate this point for your own edification, envision (or construct) an apparatus made with two elastic bands – one thin, one (say twice as) thick. One end of each band is separately fixed to a wall, then run horizontally so each passes over a pulley, and a 10 pound weight is attached to the free end of each band over the pulley, and allowed to hang freely. This ensures that there is 10 pounds of tension on each band (neglecting the small difference in physical weight between the two bands). Now fix (lock) the ends at the contact point on the pulley (this more closely simulates the in situ condition of a shroud or forestay).

Now hang a one pound weight midway along the horizontal length of each, and measure how much each one deflects downward (which is a measure of their elasticity at that given tension). You will see that the deflection distance on the heavier of the two elastics will be smaller, therefore quantitatively demonstrating that it is less elastic than the thinner one.

Use any two different thicknesses of identical materials on this apparatus- one inch diameter or whatever, and any level of tension, 3000 pounds or whatever, and you will always get this result (provided you do not approach the yield point of the materials).

-Brian.

Leon –

If your forestay sagged more with 5/32 wire, then it had less tension on it than the 1/8 wire.

Re: toggles – yeah, mine came like that too. I view it as a “cheating” of the customer when that happens – anytime you pay to have something installed and it hasn’t been installed to the minimum required standards set by the manufacturer (CDI). Especially when it’s pointed out to the installer, as I did. It’s probably a common occurrence, I doubt that we are the only ones to have that unfortunate experience.

- Brian.

Hey Sum!

Oh and in case anyone has forgotten this thread started with a broken mast and not a forestay ,

The cause of the effect! The OP’s broken mast might have resulted from an improperly tensioned forestay!

- Brian.

We are going to have to add oversize forestay to the threads with XD100, gate hasps, and ballast below the waterline bins,,,,,

For such a critical safety component, the best solution for me is installing a second safety forestay higher on the mast.

I plan to keep the original setup with the primary forestay (10-15% tension on the CDI) and install a redundant forestay (only 5% tension) anchoring to the bow rail mast holder/deck.

Thanks Dave for the idea of using the Johnson Lever on the backstay...not fighting under the CDI drum with turnbuckle and pins makes it worth it. Did you use Model #:14-205?

macr wrote:...Thanks Dave for the idea of using the Johnson Lever on the backstay...not fighting under the CDI drum with turnbuckle and pins makes it worth it. Did you use Model #:14-205?

With the fractional rig on the S the forestay is tensioned by the upper shroud (they both go to the same place). The backstay goes to the top of the mast and I thought it was there to provide some support while running and to be able to bend the top of the mast for sail shape. If I tensioned the forestay on our boat with the aft stay I'd have quite a bit of bend up there.

Our Johnson lever...



...is under the furler drum. Raise the mast and pin the toggle at the bottom of the lever and put the lever over-center and you are done and the tension is set. Use the turnbuckle in the drum one time without the furler foil on and check the tension with a gauge and it will be the same. Might not be a bad idea to check the tension once a year if you use the boat a lot.

Sum

P.S. Brian, yes I agree that improper tension was probably the reason the mast broke and concur with the rest of what you said.

===================================
Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

Might not be a bad idea to check the tension once a year if you use the boat a lot.

...and at the same time check the hidden turnbuckle for fouling and signs of unwinding, which will end the day badly...

Sumner,
I agree with the Johnson lever being at the forestay. The problem is one has to shorten the headstay and the headsail to fit. This can be expensive. Why I suggest useing the backstay for the Johnson lever, it is true you will bend the top of mast a little but this is also required for mainsail shape.
If I was to order a new headsail I would also include a shorter headstay for the Johnson lever and shorter Luff on Sail.
The Johnson lever at headstay will allow more tension for the rigging compared to the Backstay Lever.
The foot also will be raised so one can see under it.
Dave

Sumner wrote:

macr wrote:...Thanks Dave for the idea of using the Johnson Lever on the backstay...not fighting under the CDI drum with turnbuckle and pins makes it worth it. Did you use Model #:14-205?

With the fractional rig on the S the forestay is tensioned by the upper shroud (they both go to the same place). The backstay goes to the top of the mast and I thought it was there to provide some support while running and to be able to bend the top of the mast for sail shape. If I tensioned the forestay on our boat with the aft stay I'd have quite a bit of bend up there.

Our Johnson lever...



...is under the furler drum. Raise the mast and pin the toggle at the bottom of the lever and put the lever over-center and you are done and the tension is set. Use the turnbuckle in the drum one time without the furler foil on and check the tension with a gauge and it will be the same. Might not be a bad idea to check the tension once a year if you use the boat a lot.

Sum

P.S. Brian, yes I agree that improper tension was probably the reason the mast broke and concur with the rest of what you said.

===================================
Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

The smaller model is just fine for the backstay as it is used mainly for pinning the forestay.
Tension will never exceed 400 lbs downwind at 7.6 knots.
Dave

macr wrote:Thanks Dave for the idea of using the Johnson Lever on the backstay...not fighting under the CDI drum with turnbuckle and pins makes it worth it. Did you use Model #:14-205?

DaveB wrote:...I agree with the Johnson lever being at the forestay. The problem is one has to shorten the headstay and the headsail to fit. This can be expensive..

I raised the hounds for the forestay up the mast along with the upper shrouds. Not a big deal as I had to have a forestay made for the furler anyway and I was making up new shrouds myself as it was time they were replaced. The forestay was less than $50 and the shrouds weren't much as I made them up. I bought a new set of hounds and left the original ones lower down. I can now run the original forestay if I want inside of the furler and use one of the original hankon sails or a storm jib. Haven't tried any of that yet. The new sail was a stock size for an S from Somerset Sails.

Now here is a possible solution that doesn't cost any more than the price of the Johnson lever. Bob Hussey who had an....



.... S or late D added a Johnson lever and removed the turnbuckle. The old forestay goes to the top of the Johnson lever and since it has a couple different adjustments that is what he used to tension it. Also note the toggle at the bottom. He has it attached to his bow roller in what looks to be aft just a bit from where the stock fitting is for the stock forestay. With some measurements and maybe a little other hardware this would work as you are getting rid of the length of the turnbuckle and replacing it with the length that the Johnson lever is. Bob is still round,but move to a Hunter 260 and now has a Hunter 36 I believe. If anyone is interested I might be able to get him to comment on the above as I'm not 100% sure I have all of the details, but I can see where that might work,

Sum

===================================
Our MacGregor 26-S

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Mac-Venture Links

Hey Sumner,

Attaching the CDI to a Johnson Lever on the anchor roller maybe a great solution for me since it won't require upper mast changes and I am currently installing a bow pulpit with anchor roller. I will post some pic's when installed.

Thanks for the great idea!

Though I like how the Johnson Lever lifts the sail off the deck, as a minimalist, weight conscious, cheap, performance oriented backyard racer I have opted to tension the forestay with the starboard winch via the jib halyard (halyards led back). Started doing this even when running a furler, now using hank-on sails. If it makes one nervous about cranking on that kind of pressure in order to pin and attain tight stays, rig a safety line to the unpinned forestay. No levers, no routine set-up adjustments, no furler, no raising system. After set-up the jib halyard is attached and serves as a safety backup until bending on a sail.

Sumner,
I have the Windline URM-2 that I haven't installed yet, it is 16 inches long and 2 inches in width. I can place it next to the headstay chain plate and still use the chain plate as the end of anchor roller will be about 2 inches past the chain plate and height of roller is only1/2 inch high at that point. The bummer is I have to relocate the running lights to the bow pulpit.
I will look into doing away with turnbuckle and attach the Johnson lever below the roller Furler drum.
I never did like the idea of a turnbuckle being hiden inside the furler were inspection is hard to see and adjust.
I think the way Bob did it is much better as it still keeps lower center of effort, no new holes to raise the hound and more visability seeing under the sail.

Dave

Sumner wrote:

DaveB wrote:...I agree with the Johnson lever being at the forestay. The problem is one has to shorten the headstay and the headsail to fit. This can be expensive..

I raised the hounds for the forestay up the mast along with the upper shrouds. Not a big deal as I had to have a forestay made for the furler anyway and I was making up new shrouds myself as it was time they were replaced. The forestay was less than $50 and the shrouds weren't much as I made them up. I bought a new set of hounds and left the original ones lower down. I can now run the original forestay if I want inside of the furler and use one of the original hankon sails or a storm jib. Haven't tried any of that yet. The new sail was a stock size for an S from Somerset Sails.

Now here is a possible solution that doesn't cost any more than the price of the Johnson lever. Bob Hussey who had an....



.... S or late D added a Johnson lever and removed the turnbuckle. The old forestay goes to the top of the Johnson lever and since it has a couple different adjustments that is what he used to tension it. Also note the toggle at the bottom. He has it attached to his bow roller in what looks to be aft just a bit from where the stock fitting is for the stock forestay. With some measurements and maybe a little other hardware this would work as you are getting rid of the length of the turnbuckle and replacing it with the length that the Johnson lever is. Bob is still round,but move to a Hunter 260 and now has a Hunter 36 I believe. If anyone is interested I might be able to get him to comment on the above as I'm not 100% sure I have all of the details, but I can see where that might work,

Sum

Sumner, on Bob's boat without the turnbuckle, do you know what he did to attach the bottom of the forestay to the Johnson lever? The bottom of the forestay, IIRC, ends in a threaded rod that screws down into the turnbuckle...is there something I'm missing or forgetting maybe?