Well, that escalated really rapidly...

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Tomfoolery
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by Tomfoolery »

BOAT wrote:Once you have invested in the pac-cruiser style you pretty much need to live that style to get your value out of the investment. The value of a cruiser is to get you to far away places for free with all the amenities of a hotel room at every port you visit. Cruising is a sport for people who have the freedom to do so and if you have that freedom you really should do it and do it now.
And that's precisely why I sold the 34 footer and got the Mac. As much as I liked it, and how it sailed, I just couldn't put enough time together to take advantage of what it was designed to do, but at the same time, it couldn't do much of the stuff I wanted to do, like getting to far away places in short order. Or getting into skinny water. Or the beach (need a dink to even get close, in many areas around here). Or to get into most of the lakes at all around here (Finger Lakes).

Tom(foolery), with nothing of substance to add. :|
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by mastreb »

BOAT, you're exactly right and I'm already feeling the enormity of the change. The new boat means taking at least a week off work to get anywhere, which I'm able to do but not with the regularity of a retiree. Or just day sailing in San Diego bay, which can be done much less expensively. And I'm already having to cancel trips I'd put on my wish list like doing the Great Loop, the Keys, and Tahoe.

But it is my intent to do a circumnavigation, and that means building up to it in stages. My first goal is to go to Cabo and back, because the return trip is one of the hardest passages in the world and a good proof of ability trip that's still within reasonable reach of humanity. Then we'll do Hawaii. After Hawaii, I'll reasses my plans, my skills, and the boat to determine whether or not a Circumnavigation is in the cards for me.
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

I can't see that you should have any problems at all crossing oceans on that boat. I can assure you that boat can handle anything the sea can throw at it.

The Beneteau folks designed that boat for a purpose and they named that model 'OCEANIS' for a very good reason - THAT boat was designed to cruise the seas of the ENTIRE WORLD SINGLEHANDED!!

That boat is ready. You have no need to worry about that boat making any of the return passages.
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by mastreb »

It's funny you mention their design criteria:

The AVS is the required minimum for a CE A all-ocean rating
The STIX is the required minimum for a CE A all-ocean rating
The CSF is the required minimum for a CE A all ocean rating.

All three of these different index numbers are >precisely< the minimums, to like one decimal place. They used computers to maximize the beam, keel weight, fin length, etc. to get exactly the numbers necessary for the rating. Classic hulls are all over the place by comparison. If you change the loading, some of those numbers move around and go below the minimums, they're that close.

If you flush the toilet too much and move the low fresh water tankage to the higher blackwater tankage, you lose the all-ocean rating. :D

Now I just have to hope those formulas are as spot-on as Beneteau's CAD computers...
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

Huh, really, the folk said in their literature that the boat can handle all the oceans of the world single handed. They would not lie about that would they?? :? :| :?

I can't expect that from a company that makes all those huge cabin cruisers I see all over the place?? :?
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by mastreb »

BOAT wrote:Huh, really, the folk said in their literature that the boat can handle all the oceans of the world single handed. They would not lie about that would they?? :? :| :?

I can't expect that from a company that makes all those huge cabin cruisers I see all over the place?? :?
It can handle it. What those formulas actually represent is engineering data derived from all the world's boating accidents combined wherever an insurance or legal investigation occurred. A lot of information came from the Fastnet and Hobart races where storms it hundreds of boats at the same time and they were able to get a lot of statistical data about hull form and ballast ratios.

AVS and CSF are simpler formulas that speak mostly to beam ratios, and STIX is a complex formula that includes hull form.

If a boat is built to pass them, it's all-ocean capable. This Oceanis is just optimized to be as beamy as possible and still be ocean capable, as opposed to well inside the margins and narrow (such as the MacGregor 70s will be) that are going to be much more comfortable in a squall.

If this boat capsizes, it will still rotate back upright, just as slowly as the rating permits. So I'll need to hold my breath a few seconds longer is all :-)

The point is that it's not going to remain capsized, and its roll period is lower than a human's drowning period, which is what's truly important.

And I get to be a lot more comfortable the 99.99999% of the time that the boat isn't inverted.
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

I saw that McGregor 70 under construction with my own eyes at the plant. The boat is a submarine. Only the top 20% is above the waterline.

On the other one that was a tiny bit smaller Roger was saying how in the really narrow boats like those you can sail really hard over all day long with no real discomfort in the cabin because you don't have to walk a long ways uphill to get from one side of the boat to the other. He said the really narrow hull was way more comfortable in rough seas too because it plowed under the waves.

I assume he knew what he was talking about.

Why do they make sailboats really beam-y now? What is the purpose of that? In the old days (well the 70's) they were narrow but nowadays it seems all the boats are getting fatter and fatter? Why is that?

Is there an advantage to that I am not aware of?
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by mastreb »

BOAT wrote:Why do they make sailboats really beam-y now? What is the purpose of that? In the old days (well the 70's) they were narrow but nowadays it seems all the boats are getting fatter and fatter? Why is that?

Is there an advantage to that I am not aware of?
The primary advantage is that it more readily gets permission from Admirals to purchase because it's homey. Narrowness makes even a perfectly adequate space feel very small. Actual submarines have this problem, and the Navy has to do psych evals on prospective submariners to determine whether or not they will be able to deal with it long term. 90% of the time spent on boats these days is at the marina. They're often little more than floating condos, and the boat makers have realized that. Thankfully we have ocean ratings and ratios to keep the evolutionary forces of luxury in check.

That said, there is a newly discovered racing advantage to a beamy hull shape. If you look at the pictures of my boat sailing in 25 knots, you'll see that 50% of the _bottom_ of the boat is out of the water. The boat is actually acting like a catamaran with an ama out of the water. This is why the boat has to have twin canted rudders.

If you look at the chine on this boat, it's as if someone took two planing boat hulls, rotated them 30 degrees, and welded them together. The chines are actually designed to be the bottom planing surface. So what you get are two planing hulls, one for each tack, each with a canted keel pointing to windward, with the windward hull entirely out of the water. This is extremely efficient for sailing as 50% of the wetted surface gets out of the water on a heel--similar to how Macs have reduced wetted surface at a 15 degree heel, but even more extreme.

You can think of it as a semi-catamaran in that mode, but with the stability of a keel and the AVS of a monohull. It's a balance designed to be the best of both worlds.

This boat readily exceeds its theoretical 8 knot hull speed without a pause and goes straight to 9 knots on a semi-plane, able to reach 10 knots--and that's on a reach, not downwind. You can feel a strong acceleration when it gets up on the chine and the wetted area reduces.

The boat is also stable on its chine: It heels first to just a few degrees, then suddenly to the chine, then stays there without rolling. Form stability resists movement away from the chine once its on it, making the boat stiff between surfaces. Its very comfortable.

The problem with it in a storm is that like a catamaran, it's going to move atop the waves rather than rolling with them. On the plus side, it surfs, which makes it less likely to be rolled in a broach than a round full keel boat, but on the minus side, I expect it will be very uncomfortable lying ahull in a storm.

Matt
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

Well, unfortunately you have no excuse now - you MUST go out in a storm. You might as well just get it over with. Once you got the storm thing done your ready to go anywhere.

I can tell you that I grantee you WILL GET IN A STORM AT SEA - there are ALWAYS STORMS out there - they never stop - they just travel around from place to place and they are SO fast and SO big that it is impossible to avoid them with anything slower than an airplane.

You might as well just go out there and get it over with. After that I don't think you will care too much about it.
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by mastreb »

Oh, I'm definitely heading out next time we've got a good offshore gale. My Brother-in-law and I are already planning it, and I've bought the harness PFDs for the cockpit work. :-)
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

That's the spirit.


Here is a good example of the problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ySCwgLa4p8

These guys are moving along fine but they decide the 50 degree heel is too much – why? I can’t see how that was any problem at all but still to make matters worse they decide to head upwind to stop the heeling so of course the sails will start to tear themselves apart from the luffing. They should have released the sheets a little and furled the jib a little at a time while the boat was underway at a good clip so they could use their forward motion to stall the headsail and furl it a little at a time.

By turning INTO the wind they stalled the boat, made the sails luff so bad they are tearing themselves apart and turning the lines into spaghetti.

Why do people fear a stiff boat on its side so much? It’s one of the safest configurations a boat can be in when the sea is rough – why did they do that??

When can we get together for those Sierra Nevada Chronic brews?
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by Ixneigh »

Rogers 70 is designed to win races. Hands down no holds barred. The comfort is secondary. You arent going to drive your boat hard like that day in and day out without the wife getting on a plane. That angle of heel is fine for a jaunt, but with family aboard it's going to be 15 degrees and six knots. It's nice to have speed but few people will sail their boats to the full potentiAl since doing that in a small boat at sea is wet and uncomfortable. Small boats are anything under say seventy feet. Also the boat is not indestructible. She may be larger and stronger then the Mac but she will still break. And repairs will be much more expensive. Unless you have sponsors, I'd sail conservatively out of site of land, and not go looking for trouble.
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

Matt's boat is 38 feet long - it is shorter than Rogers boat.

Rogers boat can indeed take a full heel under sail all day long and be rather comfortable at the same time. If you read the write up on his boat he mentions this many times how the boat can sail through really heavy sea and strong winds and be comfortable because the 70 has such a high ratio of ballast to sail that it's impossible to knock down. And because it's so long it goes under the waves like a submarine with minimal up and down motion.

He writes in his notes that he made the boat very stiff and very narrow so that it would be very fast but also easy to get from one side of the boat to the other even when held over at 40 degrees all day long. This is a problem so common on the bigger boats and the reason they all have companionway ladders that have angles built into them on each side, (so you have a level place to put your feet when the boat is underway).

Matt's boat should also be able to handle being on it's side all day long, It's still debatable how comfortable that will be. I guess that's what he plans to find out.

On our tiny little MAC boats we can heel them all we want but a good wave is what we must fear because a wave can knock down our boats. The wind really can't because it will spill out before the boat goes over just like in that video (if you watched it) - the boat in the video is in 50 or 60 MPH winds but the boat can only go over so far because the winds will spill out the top of the boats sails at an angle that is way before the capsize moment. The skipper in the video could have sailed that boat all day long without problems just like he was doing in the first 60 seconds of the video.

Instead he decided to changes things up - then he got into trouble.

My dad always said: "If you can sail the boat, SAIL IT! because the alternative is usually a lot more dangerous."

I think what's most interesting about the video is that the chart-plotter shows the boats speed at 6.2 knots. The boat looks to me like a Catalina 39? 'boat' can go faster than that.
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by dlandersson »

Interior space. :wink:
BOAT wrote:I saw that McGregor 70 under construction with my own eyes at the plant. The boat is a submarine. Only the top 20% is above the waterline.

On the other one that was a tiny bit smaller Roger was saying how in the really narrow boats like those you can sail really hard over all day long with no real discomfort in the cabin because you don't have to walk a long ways uphill to get from one side of the boat to the other. He said the really narrow hull was way more comfortable in rough seas too because it plowed under the waves.

I assume he knew what he was talking about.

Why do they make sailboats really beam-y now? What is the purpose of that? In the old days (well the 70's) they were narrow but nowadays it seems all the boats are getting fatter and fatter? Why is that?

Is there an advantage to that I am not aware of?
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Re: Well, that escalated really rapidly...

Post by BOAT »

dlandersson wrote:Interior space. :wink:
BOAT wrote:I saw that McGregor 70 under c . . . . ?
Well, ya, I get that but once your off a trailer and into a slip anyways what's the point?? Why not just go longer for more interior space? What's the advantage to go wider?? I still don't get it. If you want nine more staterooms just add 60 more feet to the LENGTH, NOT to the WIDTH!?!? It just seems common sense to me, but I am not a big boat owner so I am probably not a good source of reason on this subject.

I do know from sailing with others that the longer the boat is the more comfortable it is. That's just my experience.

This layout is the best layout I have ever seen on a sailboat:

http://www.macgregor26.com/macgregor70/ ... terior.htm

In my experience I found it impossible to cross any ocean without hitting a storm. It's just inevitable, it's going to happen, and you can't avoid it. All the guys I know back in the 70's who sailed in storms actually SAILED IN STORMS! I was down below sick as a dog sometimes as a kid but the skipper was always flying some tiny compliment of a storm jib or some other "patch" as a way to retain control and heading. The waves were very big, like 30 feet high, and the wind would blow very strong at the top of those swells but be it my older brother, my dad, or one of my dad's friends - no matter what boat I was on the skipper always SAILED THE BOAT. The only time I ever saw a captain stop sailing a boat was because the boat was broken. That is the only time I have EVER seen a skipper lying ahull and I saw it in Mexico. The skipper of the broken boat: A Cal 25 flush deck with a broken mast - he offloaded his crew to a balboa 26 and he weathered the storm alone, and ahull, by throwing out a drogue storm anchor.

Image

What I really love about this layout is how the inside helm is setup right overlooking the galley - in storms that can last for a couple of days people tend to spend a lot of time in the galley in quick bursts looking for a fast bite or water and this set up is SO convenient for a busy skipper in a storm. I think this is one of the best layouts I have ever seen for heavy weather sailing because it keeps all the galley work to ONE SIDE of the boat and the captain right there to warn the cook before the next big wave hits. It also allows the skipper to be in the galley and still control of the boat and see what's going on topside.

I think this is a very good set up.

Image

To me the fact that the space is narrow makes it work BETTER. That's just my opinion after too many hours spent hanging on to counter tops just trying to get from one end of the galley to the other to get a bottle of Coke for my upset tummy, I have come to appreciate the visual comfort of seeing the walls move in a little tilting action as opposed to what I get on my friends big cabin cruiser that is 25 feet wide - when that boat is on it's side the wall across from you seems like it's going up hill and rising into the air - always a nice visual to those of us with sensitive tummies.

Just my preference - I LIKE the narrow boats better.

(P.S. notice the submarine hatch over the gimbaled range? That hatch is designed to be under water - !)
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