What If? What Sailboat Would You Have If Not A MacGregor?

A forum for discussing topics relating to older MacGregor/Venture sailboats.
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TAW02
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Re: What If? What Sailboat Would You Have If Not A MacGregor?

Post by TAW02 »

mastreb wrote:If it requires power to operate, it's not a sailboat. What happens when your canted keel gets stuck or the microprocessor fails? Instant overturn.

I don't see what the difference between a microprocessor controlled canted keel and quad 200 hp outboards is. I've got an idea for an inherent canted-keel like technology that I'll post in another thread.
:D Wow! Sure glad I didn't buy one. Not likely to buy one either. But like the title of the thread asks, "What if? What sailboat would I have if not a Macgregor", that is my answer. :wink:

By looking at the picture I see sails on her. So does the :macm: as well as the :macx:

Many many have said the very same thing you say. Namely that it isn't a sailboat.

:| Hmmm

Maybe that is why I am attracted to the :macm: after all :!:

Tom :wink:
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mastreb
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Re: What If? What Sailboat Would You Have If Not A MacGregor?

Post by mastreb »

What makes a sailboat in my opinion is "inherency"--the ability to function inherently and without power from anything except the wind, which will always return. If a boat requires technology, then there's little difference in my mind what form that technology takes.

It's fine to add technology all you want, as long as you don't cross the line into requiring the technology in order to operate. GPS chartplotters are an optimization to physical charts and compasses--NOT replacements for them. I carry charts and a compass even though I use them only to train my kids how to navigate. Outboard motors are an optimization to sails--they'll get you there faster, but if you rely on them, you'll eventually be stranded when the motor fails or you run out of gas. Autopilots are an optimization to sitting at the helm. Great to have, not necessary to operate.

Once you cross the line into technology that is required to operate the boat, you no longer have something you can rely on. Canted keels are awesome, but look at all the accidents that have occurred with them due to controller failures, hydraulic system leaks, lost keels, etc. Quite a few capsizes and they're a very small niche so far. I love the idea, but they are not inherently safe.

That's just my opinion, but I wouldn't trust my life to something that fails when you run out of juice.
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Re: What If? What Sailboat Would You Have If Not A MacGregor?

Post by TAW02 »

mastreb wrote:What makes a sailboat in my opinion is "inherency"--the ability to function inherently and without power from anything except the wind, which will always return. If a boat requires technology, then there's little difference in my mind what form that technology takes.

It's fine to add technology all you want, as long as you don't cross the line into requiring the technology in order to operate. GPS chartplotters are an optimization to physical charts and compasses--NOT replacements for them. I carry charts and a compass even though I use them only to train my kids how to navigate. Outboard motors are an optimization to sails--they'll get you there faster, but if you rely on them, you'll eventually be stranded when the motor fails or you run out of gas. Autopilots are an optimization to sitting at the helm. Great to have, not necessary to operate.

Once you cross the line into technology that is required to operate the boat, you no longer have something you can rely on. Canted keels are awesome, but look at all the accidents that have occurred with them due to controller failures, hydraulic system leaks, lost keels, etc. Quite a few capsizes and they're a very small niche so far. I love the idea, but they are not inherently safe.

That's just my opinion, but I wouldn't trust my life to something that fails when you run out of juice.
Have you sailed aboard a Transpac 52? From the review you hand me ... I don't think you should comment on something you know nothing about. Read my original post. I have been aboard the Morning Light (A Transpac 52). Please do not degrade that of which you have no idea of what you are talking about. Thank you sir.

nuff said :wink:
-Tom
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Re: What If? What Sailboat Would You Have If Not A MacGregor?

Post by bwygirl »

If I had not had the chance to buy that brand new water ballast trailerable MacGregor 26 in 1988 I may never have even gotten a sailboat! I have sailed since my father owned a Cal 29 but I could not own a boat with moorage back in 1988. The ability to trailer a boat easily and launch just like a powerboat, one that did not cost a lot, and was pretty too was what attacted me to the boat. Thank-You Roger for going to school, developing the boats, and making many many people very happy!
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Re: What If? What Sailboat Would You Have If Not A MacGregor?

Post by mastreb »

TAW02 wrote:Have you sailed aboard a Transpac 52? From the review you hand me ... I don't think you should comment on something you know nothing about. Read my original post. I have been aboard the Morning Light (A Transpac 52). Please do not degrade that of which you have no idea of what you are talking about. Thank you sir.

nuff said :wink:
-Tom
I'm certain she sails like a dream. I've done a substantial amount of investigation into canted keel technology because I really want it to work, but the boats are still quite rare.

Her handling characteristics were not the subject of my post. The subject of my post was that current canted keel technology is not inherently safe or even inherently operable without power.

New technology is always risky and I appreciate people who are willing to take those risks. Water ballasted keels are a newer technology that many people still don't trust, but the statistics bear out its safety.

The statistic bear out the danger of canted keels thus far. The Volvo canted keel race had 3 of 7 boats fall out with keel problems last year. Until someone figures out how to make a canted keel technology that comes somewhat near the reliability of other sail technology, it's not for me.

From the Wikipedia article on Canted Keels:

Problems

The current canting keel technology is far from perfect. At least three of the seven boats in the 2006 Volvo Ocean Race, one of the first major long term races allowing canting keels, had problems with the keels.[citation needed] One area in particular, the plates sealing the opening through which the keel passes, are prone to leaks. Unlike a centerboard or daggerboard trunk, the opening for a canting keel must allow significant lateral motion, which requires sliding seals.

The boat movistar had problems on Leg 4 of the Volvo Ocean Race, 200 miles off Cape Horn, during the night on 2 March 2006. It sprung a significant leak when the sliding plates that covered the keel opening fell off in the middle of the night. This was a problem that had occurred earlier. movistar's aft keel pivot broke loose and began flooding the boat. They made repairs in Ushuaia on the Beagle Channel.[1] Later on, in Leg 7 the same problem occurred in the north Atlantic. This time the decision was made to abandon ship, and the crew transferred to ABN AMRO TWO. movistar continued to broadcast its position for several days, but an aerial search failed to find the vessel, and it was lost.

In the 2006/2007 VELUX 5 Oceans Race (a single-handed, round the world race), the Open 60 yacht Hugo Boss, skippered by Alex Thomson, had to be abandoned in the Southern Ocean due to the snapping of the hydraulic rams that controlled the keel, which caused the catastrophic failure of the keel. When this failure caused the yacht to nearly capsize, the boat was abandoned; Thomson was rescued by fellow competitor Mike Golding. On the 25th November 2006, the boat's Sat C transponder stopped transmitting, and the hull has to date not been salvaged.

Matt
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Re: What If? What Sailboat Would You Have If Not A MacGregor?

Post by mastreb »

Tom--I owe you an apology on this one. I shouldn't have stated that canted keel boats "aren't sailboats" as if that was a fact rather than my opinion. It's just my opinion and I didn't state it correctly.

I really do love the idea of them, and I've been racking my brain since I discovered the technology to come up with some method of making them inherently safe and prevent the cascading failures from which they suffer today.

I'm just so opposed to technologies that aren't inherently safe that I didn't buy a Mac for years because I knew that water ballast can be forgotten about and without it the boat isn't inherently stable. I actually installed a one way flapper valve behind the gate valve on my Mac to absolutely ensure that the ballast tank fills and stays filled whenever the boat is in the water, but the problem is there are 1300 pounds of seawater holding that valve shut when you pull the boat out of the water and it's extremely difficult to force open without getting wet. But it does work--when the boat is in the water, it's ballasted period and you have to exert force to dump ballast. That's inherently safe. I've removed it because it really is a hassle to dump ballast, but I'm considering putting an electric pump on board to pump out the ballast. In my opinion that's okay--the boat is inherently safe, it's just not inherently trailer-able if your pump fails. Being stuck with a ballast tank full of water is not a life safety issue, so in my opinion its the better problem to have.

When I get the inherently safe ballast tank mod completely figured out, I'll post it.

In any case, I apologize for asserting my opinion as fact. It was not my intent to offend anyone.
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Re: What If? What Sailboat Would You Have If Not A MacGregor?

Post by TAW02 »

mastreb wrote:Tom--I owe you an apology on this one. I shouldn't have stated that canted keel boats "aren't sailboats" as if that was a fact rather than my opinion. It's just my opinion and I didn't state it correctly.
Mr Matt thanks but appology wasn't necessary as I felt you had confused the issue in some way when mixing a technology with sailing. In a sense I got the gist that you felt the Transpac 52 was not a sailboat. I had to shake my head on that one :D Mainly because it is a super slow power sailor (not even in that class) as the :macm: would actually motor circles around the Transpac 52 as this one has only a 15hp diesel Yanmar (if I recall) to push her around. She can get up to 8 or 9 knts under power but that is about it.

She is a sailboat and can rip the sea like no other, but yes you are right about canted keel technology. I don't know about this one. Perhaps it has been perfected. I was told it was integral to the ship's structure and only operates off centerline and not laterally, hence not a seaworthy issue as it 'sinks' rather than 'sources' energy to the keel, and not the other way around. So if there is a failure stability isn't supposed to be comprimised. Just performance.

Gimmicks man. :D Just like the :macm:'s pivotal mast. :wink:

On another note. I come to this board to learn things I cannot learn anywhere else. Guys like yourself are valuable to me. I know I don't say that all the time but I appreciate your input. I may appear smarter about things than I really am but it's because of guys like you here and in the field were real things happen. It contrast what I do for a living and I love that. :) Some of my little mods I have actually done on my :macm: comes from this place. And I hope to do more.

-Tom
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Re: What If? What Sailboat Would You Have If Not A MacGregor?

Post by mrbillfll »

TAW02 wrote:
Have you sailed aboard a Transpac 52? From the review you hand me ... I don't think you should comment on something you know nothing about. Read my original post. I have been aboard the Morning Light (A Transpac 52). Please do not degrade that of which you have no idea of what you are talking about. Thank you sir.

nuff said :wink:
-Tom
Are you doing the FLL to WPB race in early DEC? (W.Monroe)?

TP52's are crazy.... we've done that race and they just check out... I would love to be on a down wind run sometime...

so do they have canted keels?

ps: one wheel is probably worth more than my entire boat.
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