Zeno's Arrow - Hawaii Bound (hopefully)

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats
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bastonjock
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Location: Lincolnshire United Kingdom Mac 26X

Post by bastonjock »

ray

i love quotes like that :)

i grew up in an enviroment where dreams were supressed."your heads in the clouds","why do you want to go and see the world,your stupid"

i wanted to go to sea,my parents forced me to take an aprenticeship in a factory,to me it was a jail sentence,to others around me it was their idea of sucess.

they called me "MAD MATT" as i used to do things that were different from their norm,i went hill walking and camping,they went down the bar,ate slept and breathed soccer.They just did not have the ability to see beyond their immediate horizons

ive been away for 27 years,when i go "home" the same guys are sitting in the same seats drinking and talking the same stuff,time stands still.

i was part of a two man team,one day i looked over and saw john,with a stick in his mouth,"what you doing john?" "im practicing my bagpipes :) "
next day i made a phone call,the week after got ist interview ,6months later i left to go to sea :D :D
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

maddmike wrote: ... Gotta love it! First time I've ever been accused of being worried about someone throwing a law suit my way. ...

All of the stock rudder/mount systems (yes though improved) can not handle repeated breaking waves abeam the boat (this I know for sure). ... ask the boys to blast the bottom 1/3 of a rudder locked in the down position with a 2 1/2 inch hose stream for a few min. from about 2 feet away ...
In due fairness to Frank M, I think the comment about lawyers was directed at the Purple quote, not really at maddmike.

OTOH, before another ridiculous claim appears ....
Frank M has frequently observed that Roger's 'ocean-worthy' design has two rudders, so we can keep one "in reserve." Hey Mike, wonder how that "reserve rudder" would respond to a breaking wave?? :D
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tangentair
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Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Highland Park, IL ...07M...Merc 50 BF...Mila K

Post by tangentair »

bastonjock wrote:.....they went down the bar,ate slept and breathed soccer.They just did not have the ability to see beyond their immediate horizons...ive been away for 27 years,when i go "home" the same guys are sitting in the same seats drinking and talking the same stuff,time stands still.......6months later i left to go to sea :D :D
It must be part of the "Mentality of the Island" most of my family worked the mines and then later the steel mills both over there and here, the rest fled as fast and far as possible. I have been home for three years this time and it feels like some one has pulled my teeth and nails out. I love my family and recognize there are responsibilities to the children especially but ........
waternwaves
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Location: X less in North Puget Sound -have to sail other boats for a while

Post by waternwaves »

Rudders and mounts and steering

The weakest part of the boat. Bar none.

Please dont kid yourself,

I have now broken my reinforced sandwich transom mounts, and another rudder. It has been so long since I have had matching rudders on my boat that everone recognizes the boat by the mismatched rudders now with only one with bottom painted at a time, because there is always another being repaired.

Next time thicker Hexcel, and by the way.....carry spare brackets. (they are much smaller than bar stock and a tig welder anyway.....
Last edited by waternwaves on Tue May 20, 2008 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bastonjock
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Location: Lincolnshire United Kingdom Mac 26X

Post by bastonjock »

darren good to see you posting again,at what point would you consider it "rudder snapping weather" or speed?

I sail at sea,there are no big lakes around here worth the money so i head out into the North sea,C130 and i had the boat at 25 deg and hitting 8 knots,ive been out with 4ft waves in a following sea

and where do they break? is it high up ? i can fix most things :)
waternwaves
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Location: X less in North Puget Sound -have to sail other boats for a while

Post by waternwaves »

I have broken them at the hinge pin (knockdowns Barclay Sound)
broken off the bottom 2/3 (Straits of Georgia) ,
Smashed the leading edge to a friable mess, (dead head hit sailing in strait Juan de fu@)
snapped a bracket at the split web (corrosion) Texada Island,
Tore out glass under bracket gudgeon, Harrow strait,

confession, (sails were reefed during each previous listed event.)

Split rudder and smasshed leading edge from Dock impact in storm (Fishermans terminal, snapped mooring line)

Not to mention numerous previous incidents where I describe my less the complementary feelings toward the multiply replaced steering system components.

I am beginning to think the boat should not go out when the winds are 25+

But I am still learning.

68 hours till the beneteau heads out.

just look at this forecast

Fri May 23
Partly Cloudy
70°F
49°F
THU AND FRI...W WIND 10 TO 20 KT. WIND WAVES 2 TO 4 FT.

Sat May 24
Partly Cloudy
72°F
51°F
VARIABLE WIND 10 TO 20 KT. WIND WAVES 2 OR 4 FT.


Sun May 25
Partly Cloudy
68°F
51°F

Mon May 26
Few Showers
72°F
52°

Which beats the heck out of the weather off the west side of vancouver island right now with 5 to 6 meter seas and 35 kts of wind.

Looking forward to a wonderful trip this weekend.

Now for rudding snapping weather...= Whenever my boat is moving at 6 or more kts, and the boat hits either slowly moveable partially subermerged objects or when she is beating herself to death upwind and slowed to almost a stop, and you look at the rudders and the down rudder is barely in the water and hard against the rudder bracket, the main is doubled, and the sinking feeling that this is going to cost me in parts again.
Last edited by waternwaves on Tue May 20, 2008 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pokerrick1
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Right on

Post by pokerrick1 »

waternwaves wrote:I am beginning to think the boat should not go out when the winds are 25+
I have always thought that - - - but my number is 18 1/2 +. I am a scardy-cat sailor :|

Rick :) :macm:
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tangentair
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Location: Highland Park, IL ...07M...Merc 50 BF...Mila K

Re: Right on

Post by tangentair »

pokerrick1 wrote:
waternwaves wrote:I am beginning to think the boat should not go out when the winds are 25+
quote]
I have always thought that - - - but my number is 18 1/2 +. I am a scardy-cat sailor :|

Rick :) :macm:

PS If a MOD would fix the quote, that would be great - - - I can't seem to get this one right. Then you can remove this PS. Thanks.

(Really? ... looks okay to me ~fc)
you are missing the [/ before that last "quote]"
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Graham Carr
First Officer
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Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Sedro-Woolley WA, 2002 26X , Mercury 50hp 4 Stroke Bigfoot "Pauka2"

Post by Graham Carr »

Sail magazine has an article in this months issue “June 2008” regarding a shattered rudder. The article is (Suddenly it was gone) on pg 40. In this case they had a spade rudder and the rudderpost had broken lose, which holed the boat. She sunk.

Graham
maddmike
First Officer
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Post by maddmike »

Hey, I gotta say you guys are way cool! I spend a lot of time at work listening to "no s**t there I was"sailing stories from folks bringing in sails for repair, etc., but usually they are talking about something happening during a race where everything gets fixed by somebody else while they sit around a bar that night discussing the day's tactics--It's just not the same as when I 'feel for you guys"and sit here saying, ya, ya, that sounds just like what happen to me!!! Bastonjock- you and C-130 could sit around any table anywhere on the planet and swap stories with the best of em, I know for one, I'd be willing to pay for the beers just to swap a few tales with you guys! and Waterwaves, maybe we should start a 12 step program for 'Rudderwreckers Ananomious"". :) I'll get some pix posted when I get back, but to describe my current setup- my rudder mounts are 3/8 in. welded aluminum, innersleeved with 12 layers of carbon fiber (actually build from a masthead sleeve mold that met my specs. from an old Volvo 60 boat) with rubber inserts to avoid wear. The mount bolt holes were then drilled out and carbon backing plates installed inside. Additionally to avoid the usual torque flex I installed two additional supports (actually they are aux. engine mount arms, minus springs and are bolted in place horizontal to each rudder mount and attached. These in turn are held together with a tensioned 'bungie 'through an aluminum tude to help keep both rudders postioned relative to each other- hard to explain, but the pictures will help. and I do keep 2 spare rudders and one spare mount available. This setup reruires you to release the interconnection'dampner'when raising and lowering the engine, but it has not proved to be a big deal. My steering has also been modified, but I have to say it has not been a problem since I: (1) hooked the standby autopilot to the engine and run at slow rpm for steering when things get bad- doesn't take much to turn the boat with the engine and there is little counterforce on the autopilot that way. and (2), I also lock down the rudders and usually steer with the mainsheet when things are really rough, this also saves on wear and tear.

I do remember my only time off the west side of Vancouver Island, putting along motorsailing at about 3 knots, bobbing up and down with no great effort (other than freezing my ass off) while watching a 60 ft. Oyster slam through every wave, and they didný look like they were having any fun! Later that trip is where I really learned not to set a sea anchor before checking the current first (it was running 90 degrees off the wind and swell, no fun at all-actually quite scary).

As everyone here who uses their boat in rough conditions knows, the 'second rudder'isn't exactly a 'spare'' (yikes). and by the way thanks for posting the old link- that was from 1997 and refered to some Baja time on Zeno's Arrow from the fall of 1995-Now you guys are really making me feel old (and Zeno's Arrow says so too!).

MM
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bastonjock
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Location: Lincolnshire United Kingdom Mac 26X

Post by bastonjock »

i love my mac 26x,but id like very much to beef her up in preparation for the day when i get caught out in weather beyond her design capabilities.

the weather forecast is looking to give c130 and myself a wild ride on our home bound stretch this coming weekend

if you ever get back to the UK mike,let me know,im not far from cambridge and i sail out of the eastern UK coast (Norfolk)

ill buy you the beer :) as i joined a 12 step progam some 14 years ago i dont touch the stuff anymore :D :D

so far my only experience with carbon fiber is fitting the stuff to cars,but im game to try and make a few boats bits from carbon,ive done a fair bit of fiberglass work,i fix beat up cars for a living
waternwaves
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Post by waternwaves »

As bad as the rudder problems have been,

They were easy to fix compared to smacking the mast twice into the water. That bend is still slightly visible... but I did enjoy making the mast straightener out of those old kayak trailer wheels..

But I guess I am just strange....... I like to go out when the weather is active, It is so damn real. It is a problem I developed when I first became a pilot 25 years ago, I lived in an area that had good windstorms....... the kind that would seasonally have steady winds approaching 80-100 mph........ and going out and practicing touch and gos with those kinds of winds, flying fixed wing aircraft backwards over freeways, and practicing practicing practicing, helped focus me throughout my life. Kind of hard to worry about the problems at work, home, kids, business, politics whatever... it all becomes pretty unimportant during final approach. (though relisticly, this is better to do as a single man, because family then worries way too much) Plus nothing helps me learn faster.

I never intentionally take the boat out break anything, but I do enjoy working on boats also. (just not Nissan engines anymore) .

I wish I wasn't a rudder wrecker, and I am going to figure this out, without a large visible bolt on external brace, I prefer to have my solution totally on the inside of the boat, but those gudgeon/brackets/and rudders all need to be strengthened. I like the idea of daggerboard style rudders with kickaways, but maybe a 12 step program is my only hope....

I just hope that a weekend of 10-20 kt winds on the beneteau doesnt corrupt me into lazy man easy sailing. 2 couples, not a lot of rail meat, and all I have to do is play with the sails, eat good food, talk with friends, I don't know if I can handle a sailing trip with perfect conditions for 3 days.....

I might not even have to work on the boat since it is a charter.......

What am I going to do?
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pokerrick1
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Location: Las Vegas, NV (Henderson, near Lake Mead)

You'll think of something!!!

Post by pokerrick1 »

waternwaves wrote:What am I going to do?
You'll think of something :evil:

Rick :) :macm:
maddmike
First Officer
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:47 pm

As promised

Post by maddmike »

As promised I have added some pix of my centerboard, Carbon Mast (rigged for transit) and some shots of the rudder mount and engine brack that allows me to shift the engine position when motorsailing.

At: http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f302/mikderffd


MM
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MARK PASSMORE
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:38 pm
Location: Lake Lanier GA - 07 MAC 26M YAMAHA T60 "faster blue hull"

Post by MARK PASSMORE »

Thanks MaddMike, Love the photos. Nice car also. Is that a hot tub on the trailer? :D
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