Why Do We Need Foam

[Drifter]

While I'm sniffing around here, a couple of stories... my own first... sorry in advance for the long post...

Yonks ago as a fairly fit young man I went snorkeling in Greece. My 1st snorkel ever, purchased near the beach. I had no idea what I was doing but had a great time watching the fishies and coral stuff and it was fun.

Could feel myself rising up and down with the waves and after a while thought "These are pretty big waves?" At around the same time I saw I was swimming 'over a cliff', ie the bottom suddenly dropped away into the inky depths.

Ooer?

I vaguely recalled seeing in a brochure about how that island was on some shelf, which dropped away a mile off shore. But surely I wasn't a mile off-shore? Well the waves seemed big, I couldn't see anything now anyway and I began feeling nervous that maybe I was being carried by a current? So I tried turning around...

At that exact time my snorkel, an old-fashioned type of plain tube, filled with water, water which I took a good lungful of.

Ever tried coughing up a lungful of water?

Ever tried it while bobbing up and down in waves, with nothing to hold onto?

Ever realized how hard it is to float, with your lungs full?

For the first time in 20 mins or so I tried raising my head to cough out the water but I was in waves much, much higher than my head and was frequently back underwater, my mask soon filled as I scrabbled to get my mouth free of the snorkel and seawater.

As I thrashed around I felt a flipper fall off.

Eventually I managed to get enough water out of my lungs to at least breath a bit and regain some buoyancy, at which point I realized I couldn't see the land. Waves were too high and I had no idea what direction to even look...

Finally I managed to rise up with a wave and got a good view of the shore... and I was so far away I couldn't tell what was the bay and what wasn't. I'd guess I was indeed about a mile or so away, the shore just a thin dark strip in the distance.

Without a snorkel I'd say I can swim about 50 yards or so. 100 yards if I really had to.

It was at that point I realized I didn't have my snorkel. I'd lost it while thrashing around to get my face into enough air to cough and breath.

I still couldn't breath properly but set off swimming in the direction of shore...

As you can imagine, it didn't exactly look like it was getting any closer, and I was also worried I was fighting a current - and it was way, way further than I could swim anyway.

Give up? Die? Heck no!

So I doggy paddled, I tried breast stroke, back stroke, everything I could to try to swim with my face out of the water, still trying to cough up some sea, and slowly succeeding at clearing my lungs.

OK I could breath better but my arms and legs were like lead weights. I tried slowing down, to preserve my muscles... but suppose there was a current? There must be a current, for me to be so far away?

Well this is already a long post so I eventually managed to swim close enough to see and change direction to the bay, and very slowly got closer, and also closer to complete exhaustion...

What saved my life was a dark blob that didn't move. It was something, I didn't know what but something so I aimed at it... turned out to be a barnacle-encrusted rock.

When I could finally reach out and touch it, wow, such joy! I then pulled myself close to that thing, TOTALLY uncaring that it was cutting my hands and inner legs, my arms, my chest, I didn't care, I clung to that sharp, slicing thing like a child hugs a soft teddy bear!

Finally I was able to raise myself up a bit and have a good coughing session, clearing my lungs completely. I clung on, ignoring the cuts and pain as I waited for the lactic acid to fade and my muscles to rebuild strength.

Lots of blood in the water. Sharks?

Time to move... with clear lungs and a rest, the remaining 200 yards were surprisingly 'easy', not least because I knew I could make it.

When I felt sand and understood I could stand up I did so - and was greeted with a small crowd of concerned tourists and locals, who had apparently seen me get swept away and had already called the coast guard. They were shocked I'd managed to swim back and insisted I went to hospital for all the cuts.

Sorry for such a long post, but believe me, until you've been in something like that, you cannot imagine the value of something to hold onto.

It's absolutely priceless - and clinging onto something is a lot easier than swimming.

(Quick aside, for my 23ft motorboat I tried buying a life-raft. Gave up due to the cost of postage, import taxes and I couldn't get the really small one I wanted. The Mac isn't a life-raft as such, but positive flotation serves the same basic purpose)

The 2nd story is quite recent:




PS: That was the 1st time I nearly drowned in Greece. A few days later nearly drowned again, in a small boat! But that's another story for another day

[Inquisitor]

Do you write professionally? Reads like a scene in a classic spy novel. Great imaging!

[Drifter]

I do write professionally, yes

www.alanpcarr.com

But I assure you that's an absolutely true story.

The absolute biggest takeaway to the whole thing, that which really sticks in my mind to this day, was the lack of anything to grip onto.

A floating, upside-down Mac? I could hold onto one of those for DAYS!

[Russ]

Do you write professionally? Reads like a scene in a classic spy novel. Great imaging!

Agreed. Great story. I could feel your emotion. And the moral, something to cling to is a good take away.

There is a forum "Front Room" that might be a good place for your second story.

[Inquisitor]

I remember when I came back to the forum after a long absence, I saw this post title and thought surely someone has shown him the error of his ways by now. I didn't have a clue who BOAT was. I thought it just a Noob question that surely was settled. Weeks go by of ignoring this conference room... Finally, I had to walk in and see what all the debate was about. Curiosity got the better of me.

After reading the first three messages, I thought OH! BOAT's got a practical joker side to him. This is just a social thread and I'm too (re)new to get between all the regulars. EXIT Left! Two months goes by and I hear the debate sill raging. In that intervening time, I learn that BOAT makes us think about our pre-conceived notions. Maybe, I should see what this is all about...

So now, I've read the whole thing...

...
This Corona the virus thing has her stuck in the house all day and I think it's getting to all of us.
...
I have a degree in human behavior and psychology and it was easy for me to realize my wife was transferring herself onto the sad momma rabbit that was stuck in her safe burrow watching everyone else in the outside world die.
...
Basic human convictions:
Survival vs Liberty.
Liberal vs Conservative
Stay at Home orders vs Open the Economy
Socialism vs Capitalism
God vs hull
Foam vs Storage

Cabin Fever for everyone!
...
So you have a license to mess with people's head? How come, this doesn't surprise me? From now on, I must read your messages more carefully.
...
I completely agree with your philosophy. As I've said in other threads, I've risked rush hour traffic in Atlanta for over twenty years and figure I'm due for some bad luck; but I'm at a far higher risk of dying by walking into Walmart now than sailing alone to the Bahama's. However, the line is in a different place for everyone. Maybe, if I had a bunch of grand-children to teach fishing and pulling hooked fingers, sailing to the Bahamas might fade.

[Inquisitor]

I would think that it would not be advisable to add too much buoyancy low in the boat as it would change the center of gravity and make it more likely to turn turtle. The obvious question is how much is too much. Just hillbilly thinking no engineering papers around here.

Oh! I couldn't resist: Hillbilly Thinking ====== NOTE LOCATION: =====> I think I qualify.

So... to the meat of the problem. Leaving the obvious behind, I really thought long and hard about BOAT's thesis and everyone's weigh-in. Here is a few things I've mulled around...

Consider filling caused by being holed below the waterline.

1. As it stands now, this fills the bilge and that extra weight compounds to bring in more until the water equalizes with the floatation above the forward V-berth, around the cockpit and finally below the mast step... supposedly holding up our fearless crew huddled around the mast.
2. Supposedly being... if we don't have too many fridges, stoves and other toys or weighty mods.
3. I think BOAT brought the more poignant fact to home... you're not going to aim the boat in that state. I think having control is just as important. We're not going to be out in the ocean, days/weeks from rescue... being inland or costal, we're always going to be more in jeopardy of dashing on the rocks.
4. The answer to this, if we were to fill all volume below the waterline, there would be no place for the water to fill. It simply wouldn't come in. In fact, you wouldn't know you'd been holed until you pull it up on the trailer. And for BOAT's projects, pulling ALL of the flotation in the three high locations would be possible.
5. Now... is this possible?
   • If the crude, marketing line drawings are relatively accurate, it appears the waterline is just under the rear mattress and it looks like some of the saloon floor is under waterline.
   • Would you be willing to fill the entire bilge up to this line? I thing most will say... NO WAY. But you'd be choosing your comforts over your safety. Did you just move that risk/reward line to a new place?

Consider filling caused by green water coming in gang-way.

1. As it stands now, the same thing happens above #1.
2. And if you chose #4 (to fill the bilge with flotation) at some point it would surely turn turtle, even with the tank full. In fact with all the floatation in the bilge, it'd stay turtled.
3. But really now ... are you going to be in conditions that green-water might come over the side and into the gang-way?
4. Didn't you have hatch in?
5. After the first green wave, were you then smart enough to close it?
6. I'm sure NONE of you fall into this person's Darwin Award nomination.

[Inquisitor]

1. I know polyurethane foam gets water logged over time and the closed cell "styro" foams don't. I note on the spec sheets of the 2-part foams that the low density < 4 lb/cu-ft are open-celled and the >= 4 lb/cu-ft are closed-cell. Do these higher density versions still get waterlogged?
2. I've also see some stuff packed for shipping... where they use trash bags around the part then fill the bags with this expanding urethane foam. The bags contain the foam, shaping around the part/inside the box. After cured, the molded foam blocks in plastic are removable. We could use the same technique to fit the special shapes in our bilge.
3. Depending on quality of bag, would this protect the foam from getting waterlogged?
4. We could even be penny-pitching on the foam if we first filled the bags with the sealed plastic water bottles, and/or chunks of Styrofoam we get from torn up Christmas presents - We'd use next to no foam, yet we'd have nice shapely, rigid removable blocks that filled all the volume, not just the bottle volume. If constrained and the right quantity pored in, it would pressure itself through out the crevices by it self.

Just a thought.
VBR

[BOAT]

The question was indeed posted as a philosophical one. I had a similar experience as drifter while in Hawaii. I was there on my honeymoon 30 years ago and got the flu on the plane. After a couple of days in the hotel bed I felt strong enough to go out and the sun and warm water enticed me to swim. The bottom was a steep drop-off but I was not concerned as I had always been a good swimmer. Without my feet on the bottom I just assumed I could lay back and float but something was wrong - I felt heavy and was not floating. I tried to stand on the bottom but it was not there - I just sunk - so I struggled to the surface to get air and when I stopped struggling I sunk yet again. I could actually see my new wife on shore oblivious to my situation thinking that I was going to make her a widow after only a few days of marriage. I did not panic but I did assume I was going to die because I could not keep myself on the surface. What a strange feeling, I was sort of calm with the whole thing. I read the Bible and believe in the Jesus Gospel so I just assumed I would go to heaven so right about the time I figured was my last time to struggle to the surface for air I was only thinking about what it was going to be like to go to heaven when just I was going down for the last time my feet hit bottom! I can only assume that with each struggle to the surface I was swimming towards the shore and I finally got there at the last second.

So why would a young guy of 33 have a hard time floating? Two reasons: One - I was in my prime physical condition at the time after 9 years of single life eating lean and exercising building muscle because I as a single guy I wanted to look good. I had no fat on me and was all muscle. When you single you have time to exercise.

Two: My lungs were still full of fluid from the flu - I was still coughing up crap and my lungs were heavy. It was perfect conditions for a drowning and I never worried because it was so close toe shore I assumed (wrongly) I was in no danger.

So, after all this long posting what am I driving at? Well, the point is that flotation IS a philosophical question.

Why do some drive a Subaru instead of a Corvette?
The Corvette is more likely to kill you, but the guy driving it is willing to take that risk.

If you are so scared of taking risk you should not be out on a small sailboat in the first place.

Life is dangerous. People die. In fact EVERYONE dies. It's going to happen sooner or later, yet we try to postpone it as much as possible. That's smart. So we are trying to balance having a good life with the dangers associated with the freedom to do that. In some countries you would not even be allowed to own a boat without extensive training and certification. The freedom to do stuff includes the freedom to kill yourself. If we do not have that freedom we can't drive cars own boats climb ladders or hike on mountains.

In Iceland where all 350 thousand residents are on an island and have healthcare and similar DNA they had total control of the corona virus because of total population testing and tracing. They actually got their infection rate to ZERO many times! Why did they not keep it there? They had the virus beat, they could have stayed at zero, yet Icelanders decided as a nation they valued their tourist trade more than total safety. They opened bars and restaurants and allowed tourist in knowing it would bring infections to their population. Why? Because Icelanders value tourism and hospitality more that absolute safety.

So we have people on the forum that remove foam to make storage for other stuff.

The question is: What is that "other stuff" that we feel is more value to us than the security of the foam?

So what are these items?

[Russ]

I've never owned a boat that I thought wouldn't sink. I've always planned on having lots of stuff to cling to if it ever did (see Drifter's story above). Throwables, life jackets, etc.
If my boat got holed, I fully expect to be getting very wet and should be ready. I don't put much stock in the boat's "unsinkable" feature.
With that said, all the floatation is still in my boat. I don't need the space enough to remove it. Better to cling to a floundering hull than a barnacle-encrusted rock.

These boats have a remarkable safety record. With a few rare cases of extreme captain stupidity, I have yet to find a case of one capsizing.
The companionway opening is so high it would take quite a wave to allow a lot of green water into the cabin.

Modding your boat changes everything. One captain who installed opening portholes below the gunwale and left them open had a tragic experience.
I read a Venture of Newport 23 actually sank during a freak capsize. I don't remember the specifics, but I do believe floatation was removed and a freak wind knocked him down.

Have fun, but be safe when on the water.

[Inquisitor]

...
Why do some drive a Subaru instead of a Corvette?
The Corvette is more likely to kill you, but the guy driving it is willing to take that risk.

Those of us who do drive sports cars, don't feel we are at any more risk. We just feel we'll avoid that same point in space as that Semi truck... better than a Chevy Suburban.

In Iceland where all 350 thousand residents are on an island and have healthcare and similar DNA they had total control of the corona virus because of total population testing and tracing. They actually got their infection rate to ZERO many times! Why did they not keep it there? They had the virus beat, they could have stayed at zero, yet Icelanders decided as a nation they valued their tourist trade more than total safety. They opened bars and restaurants and allowed tourist in knowing it would bring infections to their population. Why? Because Icelanders value tourism and hospitality more that absolute safety.

I think they value eating. Tourism and offering hospitality is something no area local really likes.

We have a similar problem here. I live is a tourist area where all the big-city people THOUGHT it will be safer for COVID to come to the country. We have trailer parks that rarely have three campers at any one time... are all full of RV's of evacuees of Atlanta and other major cities that have been living here for months. Our COVID rate is as high as Atlanta now. I guess someone here likes their tourist dollars more also. What these evacuees don't realize... the health care here will not be near as good as back home and its already overloaded.

[NiceAft]

I think they value eating.

Iceland is sooo expensive. I remember seeing lots of tourists in the restaurants; not so many locals. They need the tourist euros, dollars, pounds, etc. so they can eat.

I highly recommend spending three or four days there, but warn you ahead of time, really expensive. It’s a small island; most everything is imported.

Standing between two tectonic plates in Iceland. The North American plate is on the left, and the European plate is on the right.


I now return this thread to its main topic.

[BOAT]

Gander in Newfoundland had many airplanes land during 911 because northeastern airports in the US were closed. The townspeople in the tiny Gander opened their homes to help all the stranded travelers. People who open their homes to strangers value something. Canadians are pretty nice too. Unlike America, it's okay to have good behavior in Canada. They seem to value good behavior in Canada. In America it's not cool to be "good".

So we all saw the Redford movie where he holed his boat and in the end he was finally rescued when he lit his life raft on fire. The point of the movie is that of all the things he was prepared for (he had fiberglass repair on board, a life raft, a radio, etc . .) in the end what saved him? Most people will tell you that desperation saves more lives than preparedness. I don't hold that view myself, but I know many who do.

Therefore, I do no judge you for replacing your foam with something else. Many have replaced the foam in the forward berth with a water tank.

Some folks want storage around the chain locker instead of foam.

So far I have not removed any of the factory foam on 'boat', it's all still there.

Just to give you an interesting note, my dad added MORE foam to his sailboat! (He was an insurance agent.)

[My Mistress]

So far I have not removed any of the factory foam on 'boat', it's all still there.

OK, now that we have heard both sides of the original question, I have to ask; when was the last time anyone actually checked their foam?
A couple years back, I dug into the nether regions between Mistress' hull and liner. A lot of the foam had deteriorated to the point of being useless. I have a pour-in foam kit on hand to replace some of it one of these days when my back allows me to bend in weird shapes.

H/T to "Inquisitor" for the idea of pouring the foam into bags and letting it expand in them.

Cheers
-James

[Inquisitor]

I really like the IDEA of poured foam, but if you do a search "poured foam boating"... its real bad below the waterline... absorbs water, keeps it, never dries and even causes problems with the fiberglass hull. With lots of water it will seems to do something like rotting. It'll turn to soup. I'd never put it in a place below the waterline than can't drain. I'd assume (but don't know) that it'd be ok if it got doused and allowed to drain. I can attest that if you want to take it out it is very difficult. Its sticks to everything and doesn't let go. Same as Gorilla glue... well... because it is the same stuff.

Something I purchased came with that DIY mentality of using it inside a bag, inside a box to self-form around the part. The foam and part came out just fine. As long as it doesn't "trap" under the waterline so you can't easily take it out, I'd think the bag will keep from getting wet and even if it did, you'd be able pull it out easily. I'll be trying on my... eventually.

[Divecoz]

If something goes wrong and you dont care if it floats or sinks take all of it out you want..Jeeeeeeese.. its there for a reason .. Up to 19 feet most boats have to float its for SAFETY...
SOSDD..