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sailboatmike wrote:Thats my experience with the X it hardly moves when I step on before filling the tanks and Im no feather weight (90Kg or 200lbs)

Look at the photo carefully notice the scallops in the captains seat, mine is real early production and doesn't have those, so I presume that may be a prototype in the picture

Okay, so you have an X boat and according to you I am not just seeing things - I'm telling you guys that the M boat is WAY MORE rolley polly than the X boat -

That must be why I hear all the X drivers getting into a panic at 35 degrees - it probably feels really bad to you guys - it's just normal daily business on the M boat.

I bet if Tom had the data the GZ curves for the two hulls would have differences like illistrated below - most boats have a little hiccup right after the Maximun Righting ARM - the M boat does not.


This is pretty typical from what I have seen on a lot of boats - they seem to get a little spot of acceleration right before they put the chine into the water.

You can see it here on the Bavaria 32 also:




I think the M boat would have a less steep initial angle like the second picture below but I think it would have a WAY flatter top on it because the boat hits a wall at 45 degrees.



It would be interesting to get a GZ curve calculation from Tom - if only we could get him the data - it would be VERY helpful in sailing the boat at it's best performance.

22 Degrees is supposed to be the sweet spot on the X according to Roger from a Youtube video I watched, I find that inst far from right, somewhere between 15 and 20 degrees she seems to go on rails pretty much, I have had her over at 35 degrees and she felt VERY stable but all be it a bit uncomfortable.

I find that the heel doesnt make you want to clamber to the windward side like on most boats, quiet happy on the low side and the boat doesnt seem to mind in the slightest once in the sweet spot.

The X seems more susceptible to being twitchy under power at around 6 knts when people move around in the cabin

Here's the video for the M.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G2bZTjB7wo

Watch from 38:47 to compare the two models. Roger states that he weighs 180 pounds, and does the same hang-off-the-spreaders trick. With the X, the video says that the ballast tank was empty, and there was less movement than when he does the same thing with the M and the ballast tank full.

What really struck me was the response the two boats had when they were held over on their side (120lbs for the X and 130 lbs for the M at the almost-top of the mast, according to the video) and suddenly released. They both right themselves, but they do it in very different ways. The X comes upright and rolls a bit past upright towards the opposite side of where it was held down, and then stabilizes:


This is about as far past the vertical as the X rolls

The M rolls WAY past vertical, almost over on its other side!

This is how far past the vertical the M rolls. The M also rolls back and forth a LOT before stabilizing, while the X only had about one oscillation.

What a difference! If you're in the market for an X or and M and you let your less experienced sailing partner watch those two videos, you'll find yourself guided towards the X. Watching these videos you could be excused for thinking that the X was a much more stable boat, yet it's the one with a fatal capsize on its record.

That just goes to show how much they must of been doing wrong if the X capsized.

Things like this are NOT accidents, they are caused by people doing the wrong things.

Blaming the boat for someones stupidity is a bit like blaming Chevy if someone crashes their car into a tree, hardly the cars fault the idiot was texting while driving at 70MPH and reading the newspaper

I know it was the highway authorities fault for building a road near the tree or maybe the person that planted the tree there 100 years ago, before the road was built.

Anyway I think the appeal against the guys conviction was thrown out as it was proven the boat was safe if operated by the instructions which clearly say that nobody should be on the cabin roof or foredeck if the boat is operating without ballast.

You know, I often think that the Tatoo 22 might have been killed by the subject of this thread. If the new T22 hull showed signs of a serious instability flaw, then everything would have to be scrapped and back to square one. I think naval architects start with simulating the stability of a hull shape with finite element analysis followed by scale models in wave tanks and so on. I wonder if any of those steps were taken with the T22.

Starscream wrote:The M also rolls back and forth a LOT before stabilizing, while the X only had about one oscillation.

It looked to me that the rudders were up, and the rudders were not visible, so presumably they were down. Based on how fast the oscillations were damped out, I'd have to guess the CB was down, too. I would also guess the DB was up, based on the underdamped motion.

The motion of the just looks heavily damped, and the does not. Anyone care to pull their onto its side, with DB and rudders full down, and film it's motion?

I think the M boat is much more rolley polly than the X boat. I also think that is why the X boat makes people scared at 45 degrees whereas the M boat is not scary at 45 degrees.

I think the X boat has a much more stable ride between 0 and 30 degrees than the M boat - it appears to me that the X boat remains pretty stiff along that curve between 0 and 35 degrees but the M boat is really floppy and moves much more back and forth between 0 and 30 degrees.

Then something happens on the M boat at 35 that does not seem to happen on the X boat - at 35 the boat gets stiffer - and keeps getting stiffer right up to about 45 to 47 degrees (depending on load) and right around 45 to 47 degrees the M boat is like a rock - it hits a wall - there is not more movement - I saw a movie of Beene walking the rail on his M boat at 45 plus degrees under auto pilot sailing alone and the boat was so stable he was able to stand upright along the rail and walk along it - that has been my experience with the M boat.

The X on the other hand from reports seems to get very tippy right around 40 degrees and seems to accelerate it's heel between 35 and 45 degrees - but still has a solid run at 45 plus - It appears the trip to 45 degrees is a bit more jarring in the X - I suspect that is because of a boat with a flat bottom getting up on it's corner - it's a balancing act.

My A23 had a round bottom and it too was very rolley polly



but it was just one smooth roll all the way over on the A23 - it would just keep rolling over all the way to 50 degrees and stall:



Unlike the M boat which will roll to about 45 degrees and just stop like a wall - it's stiffer than any boat I can recall at 45 degrees even with too much sail in too much wind:



.

Actually quite a good point.

Starscream wrote:You know, I often think that the Tatoo 22 might have been killed by the subject of this thread. If the new T22 hull showed signs of a serious instability flaw, then everything would have to be scrapped and back to square one. I think naval architects start with simulating the stability of a hull shape with finite element analysis followed by scale models in wave tanks and so on. I wonder if any of those steps were taken with the T22.

Note the white hull on the X. Just sayn'

Starscream wrote: ...

Under sail with ballast The X behaves fine at 45 degrees. Not the best technique to make headway, especially with inexperienced crew, but 45 is no problem. When my boat gets just a bit past 45 it rounds up in the gusts; can't stop it. I love running it at 30+ degrees just for the feeling.

...

This has been my experience with the X as well. It's not that the X won't run at 45+ it's just that it is slow and hard to keep it from rounding up. I used to run at 30+ degrees when I first got the boat just for the practice but I prefer to go faster and be more comfortable now. The first 15 degrees don't take much wind, around 20 it hardens up to around 45 degrees. Above 45 you have to work to keep it from rounding up but it does not feel "tippy". I've had it over with a sheeted in jib in the water. I did not look at the "tilt meter" but it had to have been pretty close to 90 degrees. It made a mess of the cabin and scared my passengers when an unexpected gust hit us in a curve in the river. Even though we were rounding up pretty hard the wind was keeping up with us and keeping us on our side. The GPS track shows a full 360 in a couple of boat lengths. I never felt like we were going to capsize but I was worried about ripping the clew out of my jib again.

Be Free wrote:

Starscream wrote: ...

Under sail with ballast The X behaves fine at 45 degrees. Not the best technique to make headway, especially with inexperienced crew, but 45 is no problem. When my boat gets just a bit past 45 it rounds up in the gusts; can't stop it. I love running it at 30+ degrees just for the feeling.

...

This has been my experience with the X as well. It's not that the X won't run at 45+ it's just that it is slow and hard to keep it from rounding up. I used to run at 30+ degrees when I first got the boat just for the practice but I prefer to go faster and be more comfortable now. The first 15 degrees don't take much wind, around 20 it hardens up to around 45 degrees. Above 45 you have to work to keep it from rounding up but it does not feel "tippy". I've had it over with a sheeted in jib in the water. I did not look at the "tilt meter" but it had to have been pretty close to 90 degrees. It made a mess of the cabin and scared my passengers when an unexpected gust hit us in a curve in the river. Even though we were rounding up pretty hard the wind was keeping up with us and keeping us on our side. The GPS track shows a full 360 in a couple of boat lengths. I never felt like we were going to capsize but I was worried about ripping the clew out of my jib again.

That sort of is my point - the M would never go to 90 degrees - it's a wall at 50 degrees - it just won't go further - I have a HUGE headsail and I can't tip the boat over - John has tried with three sails - same deal.

BOAT wrote:

Are you in either of those pictures, BOAT?

Nope, that's me there on the helm with the tiller extender in the blue boat:



We wore watches back in those days because you needed it to navigate. (How funny) I spent many days sitting there on those gunnels as a kid steering that boat. There is a compass on the bulkhead right in front of me. Without that you have no idea what way your pointed out there within 30 degrees without a good watch. After a 30 degree bearing you need the compass to get any better than that.

I just turned 14 in this picture and the location is somewhere out in the Pacific halfway between Malibu and San Nicholas island. On that trip we rounded Santa Barbara Island on our way to Cat Harbor on the back side of Catalina because I had never seen Sutil Rock before and I wanted to sail between Sutil Rock and Santa Barbara Island. In my youth I sailed many boats, Tartans, Ericsons, Balboa 26 (I liked that boat) hobies, Sabots, lots of CALS, and a lot of crewing on big boats with other people - as an adult I sailed the blue boat occasionally and I sort of inherited if from my brother who got it from my dad after he died. My brother did not want the boat anymore and left it to me. I was just too damn heavy to tow in my opinion (permanent ballast) and too slow to rig so I lost interest. Then the MAC with it's light weight and easy rigging got me back in the game many years later. First time I saw the X boat I wanted it (it was the big front windows and the open cabin and the enclosed head - that was all superior to me) - I wanted the X - but I did not have the money back then - my wife and I saved for 13 years and when ready - THE X WAS GONE!! I was so disappointed, but after a year of talking with Captain Mike he talked me into the M boat. He was convinced it was a better sailing vessel, but I was not, until I finally sailed one with Mike. So I bought one. I still like the X though. I have had a LOT of experience on all kinds of trailer boats - EXCEPT THE X! I really need to get on an X some day and find out what the skippers are all complaining about at 40 degrees - something is going on and I have a good idea what I think it is based on what i have experienced on other boats.