As DLT points out (I think) there's going to be enough slack in the jackline to stand up in the middle of the boat where you'd be working at the mast...
If the jackline is loose enough that you can stand with your 3' tether attachment 4' above the deck, it's loose enough that it won't do you much good holding you on the boat.
Call it semantics, but by my definition having the tether fetch you up "only a few feet below deck level" which as a minumum puts your legs in the water, and if the boat's heeled means you'll be glad your autoinflator PFD has fired, is not the same thing as preventing you from falling overboard. I say that's being drug, and the chances you will be able to pull yourself back aboard in this situation are pretty slim.
The Sail Mag article on COB says most people can stand being drug up to 2 knots, but at 3 knots only the fittest can even hang on. They're talking about a bare rescue line, but if you can't hang onto a bare line at 3 knots, you won't be able to make progress pulling yourself aboard either.
If you have crew who know you're OB and who know how to stop the boat quickly, having the tether drag you or dangle you in the water until they can do so is probably not so bad. If you don't, or they don't, or particularly if you're singlehanding, IMO you're pretty much screwed.
The bottomline is that I don't care if a tether and jackline ARE a major royal PITA if we get caught out in heavy weather. I'm sure I'll pi$$ and moan about them too, but my priority is keeping my butt in the boat.
I'd say the same thing, but your statement is predicated on success. I'm telling you not only are they a big PITA, but they're also not going to keep you aboard the boat.
I drag a line behind the boat with the distal end with a loop to catch or hang onto. On a nice summer day a few years ago I locked the wheel and went overboard and grabed onto the line and was able to control the direction of the boat by using my body as a rudder. This was very effective in controling the direction of the boat. I was also able to be pulled with my head above the water by adjusting my body. I could move in and out on the line and pulled myself back to the boat without a problem. I drag a long lifeline to allow myself time to recover from the fall and have time to get the line. If you go overboard and are knocked out then it's over if your alone and no worries.
Try it first with other crew so if you can't get back they can help you.
ken
I didn't say "few feet". I said "couple of feet", and that at a maximum I should think...
Lets do the math.
Can we accept that the jackline can be tensioned/configured such that it deflects no more than 2 feet from the centerline of the boat? This will be at the midpoint of the jackline, putting it real close to the mast, right?
Well, how wide is the boat at that point? For argument's sake, let's say 6 feet. That means that it is approximately 3 feet from the centerline to the edge.
Ohh wow, by coincidence, I happen to have a 3' tether on... So, wouldn't that put the harness attachment point 2 (otherwise known as a couple of) feet below the deck? Ok, wait a minute, the deck isn't absolutely flat. So, this 'simple' math doesn't exactly work out. But, I bet the rubrail is about 5 (2' slack + 3' tether) feet, or more, from the mast base, along the curvature of the deck. This means that the attachment point is going to be real close to the rubrail. Maybe I have too much confidence in myself, but I think I could reach that lip along the top of the cabin from there and swing a leg up...
The above, of course, assumes the lifelines gave up the ghost...
If not, if the lifelines hold, then that attachment point would be less than 2 feet below the lifelines. I say "less than" due to the geometry. Ok, so those lifelines would surely sag a great bit, but this still puts the attachment point about 1 foot below the stanchion base.
Ok, so if that attachment point is 1 foot below the stanchion base, then isn't my head above them, or at least at that level? That might be real handy, if I'm unconscious, whether or not the boat be pitching, rolling, heeling, etc...
I know it won't be 'easy' trying to clammer aboard like this, but its got to be easier than trying it from floating in the water... If your not singlehanding, you almost have it made, don't you?
I gotta at least be able to head the boat into the wind using my remote... If I can do that, then this at least reduces the problem of getting back aboard doesn't it?
Yes, if I'm forward of the mast, the beam drops off quickly. But, so to does the slack in the jackline.
Only at the bow, could I be approaching the 3 feet below deck point. But, here is probably the safest point on deck, isn't it? After all, you're probably working on your knees and you have the pulpit cage to grab hold of. Oh, and that pulpit will almost certainly support the tether. So, if you fall over the pulpit, that attachment point has got to be real close to deck level. Of course, with all that SST tubing around, assuming no injury, I think I can wallow back aboard...
If the tether just misses, or falls off the rear portion of the pulpit, then you'd be back to ~2' below the deck rubrail...
The tighter the jackline, the less of you in the water... Of course, with no slack, then your upward reach at the mast will be limited. On the other hand, I see no reason why I can't crouch down a bit going forward in heavy weather...
Also, this is all assuming you fall off... I'm thinking that a tight jackline/tether setup will actually help keep me planted on the boat. If I'm standing amidships at the point with the most slack in the jackline, that would be the point that I would want to be able to just barely stand, but with significant tension downward. If I move outward, that tension only increases. The tension would also increase as I go forward... Heck, if you're crouched and you loose your balance outward, just stand up straight and the jackline/tether will help steady you, as long as your shoes hold...
Hey, I recognize that this is not a perfect solution. I recognize that I may not be able to get myself back aboard. I also recognize that if I'm out and/or injured, my best bet is likely going to be using that big clorox bottle as a PFD (no I'm not suggesting foregoing a "regular" PFD). I also think being drug along side, with my head firmly out of the water, has got to be a better feeling than watching my boat go bye-bye...
On edit:
One other thought just occurred to me. If I can get/keep that harness attachment point about mid-chest or lower, my gut might actually help me with this, I bet I can reach real close to 3 feet. So, I might even be able to reach the jackline...
If I can get/keep that harness attachment point about mid-chest or lower, my gut might actually help me with this, I bet I can reach real close to 3 feet. So, I might even be able to reach the jackline...
I didn't say "few feet". I said "couple of feet",
I'm sorry, I was unaware of the difference. Can we agree at two? That's the number I was using in my argument.
I'm not going to refute your points one by one, because it's obvious from your suppositions that you're not dealing with an actual jackline or an actual tether or an actual harness, because you don't actually have them. I've got two out of three, and I know how they behave because I've used them.
Once you get your harness and 3' tether have jacklines installed per your supposition, get back to me.
If I can get/keep that harness attachment point about mid-chest or lower, my gut might actually help me with this, I bet I can reach real close to 3 feet. So, I might even be able to reach the jackline...
However, this one invites special comment. The attachment point on my PFD is were it is, it's mid chest, and I couldn't lower it if I wanted to. On the other hand, if you had can find one with an attachment point below mid chest, say your waist, if you just happend to go over head first, you'd stay inverted, maybe with your head underwater. Try pulling yourself up backwards.
Ok Chip, you're god. If you say it can't be done then it can't... Shame on us mortals for trying to think it though... We're not worthy...
You are absolutely right that I have never dealt with this kind of setup on a boat.
And, come to think of it, all the fall restraints, and other harness, I have used in the past did have some form of leg loop to keep them from riding up.
But, isn't the attachment point on the PFD harness in Moe's picture, at the bottom of the first page, near one's waist?
I'm not an expert on this stuff. But, it seems to me that you could run a low strech line or webbing, from the port bow cleat, maybe even around one of the port stanchion bases, rearward, but on the starboard side of the mast, to a point about about middle of the aft edge cabin sliding top. This would be the jackline to use when working on the starboard side of the deck. Then, run another starting at the bow on the starboard side, past the port side of the mast to that same point on the cabin top. Then, connect that "point" to both rear cleats. This would give you pretty good handholds, with maximum space, in the cockpit and minimize deflection away from the centerline of the boat...
No, I'd never want this 'web' on my boat sailing it on the lakes I've been restricted to so far. But, If I'm going out in, or about to get caught out in heavy weather, I don't see a problem with it... Yes, this would be something to pre-rig ahead of time. But, I bet I could do it all with climbing rated locking 'biners to reduce implementation time...
DLT wrote: ... But, isn't the attachment point on the PFD harness in Moe's picture, at the bottom of the first page, near one's waist?
I think I own exactly that PFD that Moe pictured (mine is an automatic SOS) ...and after it's draped over my shoulders, the harness rings rest about at my sternum, not waist. It seems to me that's just about exactly where I want them, even though I find the entire package is pretty uncomfortable. BTW, your post aludes to a realistic problem with these things ... When PFDs were tested by one of the magazines (sometime during the past year), riding-up was judged a problem that could possibly have a soul "falling out" the bottom of the PFD.
Regarding the jackline, I have not yet installed it (them) but I do know where. IMO, it's not necessary to run fully to the bow. Besides that, I find that the bow cleats are already too crowded with other lines. A heavy deck padeye will replace the factory mast raising deck-eye. The jackline will loop through this padeye, then stretch aft to two large eyebolts mounted through the (vertical) companionway hatch rails. These are the rails which hold the removable hatch.
At such placement, the same two eyebolts are also well-placed to anchor a cockpit tether. Not only is it a strategic spot, but the factory layup at those rails is over a half-inch thick ... probably the most substantial layup in the entire hull.
FW(hatever)IW
DLT wrote: ... But, isn't the attachment point on the PFD harness in Moe's picture, at the bottom of the first page, near one's waist?
I think I own exactly that PFD that Moe pictured (mine is an automatic SOS) ...and after it's draped over my shoulders, the harness rings rest about at my sternum, not waist.
The picture is of the Mustang Survival automatic PFDs we have. Must be very similar to the SOS. Sternum is an accurate description of the location.
Ok, I stand corrected, the attachment point would be sternum or mid-chest area...
Even then, I still think you'd be suspended at least close to a point where you could manage your way back aboard. Whether you could make it or not would depend on all kinds of stuff, like where you were in relation to shrouds, stanchions, etc, as well as what condition you were in...
If you can't make it back aboard by yourself, it'd still likely be better than going all the way into the water... Heck, if you had crew to help, you'd be alot closer to grab... If alone and injured or out cold, your head should still stay out of the water...
Either way, you could still make the tether jackline system tight enough to help you stay on the boat, even a narrow beam boat like ours.
Bottom line - no I don't have any real world experience with which to back this up. But, it seems to me that it could very well help.
I'm obviously resistant to just toss my hands up and accept defeat. I'm just not wired that way. I prefer not to just accept that something cannot be done. Rather, I think most problems can be solved. Its just matter of outsmarting the problem...
DLT - You don't "need to snake this (headsail) downhaul between
the hanks. Otherwise, you'll just be pulling down on that top hank, which will get jammed".
I put the top hank through the center of a 1" SS O-ring, onto the forestay. This way the top and bottom of the O-ring ride down at the back of the forestay. I prefer this to RF. I think it's safer, simpler, less expensive, etc.
If you just put the O-ring in the hank with the forestay, it will bind.
Another thought, on an active POB recovery, leveraging the fact the the engine can overpower the sails on our boats in light conditions.
In light winds, which I wont define here as that would probably cause a p****ng match, you could leave everything up, deploy the Lifesling, turn the motor on, and circle the POB with boat to recover, then off you go. Once the person is near the boat on the Lifesling line you drop the sails and cut the engine to get them back on board.
I think that would be the fastest to getting the POB 'attached to the boat', which is 1/2 of recovery, and probably faster in total recovery time too.
An active POB on our boat could avail themselves of the ladder from the genoa track with a helping hand from the cockpit to board.
I have done a lot of thinking on how to get a disabled POB back on board a Mac. The high freeboard causes a big problem especially when the POB weighs more than the person having to retrieve them. What I have come up with (though I have not tested it yet) is to carry a heavy duty net that can be attached to the rear cleat on one end and the winch at midship. You drop the net over the side of the boat and bring the POB beside the boat and retrieve the outside side of the net. Pull the outside of the net up over the side which should roll the POB up the side of the boat and into the cockpit. If you still don't have the strength to get them up over the rail you should at least get them out of the water where they have a chance to survive till the CG or another boat arrives to assist.
I have done a lot of thinking on how to get a disabled POB back on board a Mac. The high freeboard causes a big problem especially when the POB weighs more than the person having to retrieve them. What I have come up with (though I have not tested it yet) is to carry a heavy duty net that can be attached to the rear cleat on one end and the winch at midship. You drop the net over the side of the boat and bring the POB beside the boat and retrieve the outside side of the net. Pull the outside of the net up over the side which should roll the POB up the side of the boat and into the cockpit. If you still don't have the strength to get them up over the rail you should at least get them out of the water where they have a chance to survive till the CG or another boat arrives to assist.
On our boat the admiral and I always wear the combination PFD/harness and we have practised the manuevers reported by Chip in addition to heaving-to. Our rule is that if either of us goes overboard the other will sail to recover as this is the fastest way to retrieve someone. When the COB is contacted use a line to tie them to the side of the boat until the main can be completely lowered and a halyard attached to the harness to pull the unfortunate crew member aboard.
When sailing with friends who are not sailers we show them how to lower the main--actually it is a good idea to get them to raise it in the first place. We instruct them that if Admiral and Captain are both in the water to lower the main and motor to pick us up. Going over this at the beginning of an outing in addition to showing the location of first aid kit, fire extinguishers, etc. etc. is a good idea.
We also have a lifesling. Although there is a great temptation to throw it immediately the crew goes over, it will just pull past them. It is better to do the retrieval manuever first and then throw it when the boat is slowed down and you are very near on top of them--so you won't miss the throw. I believe it is also better to hitch the halyard to the harness or even a belt if the person is incapacitated rather than pulling on the lifesling line for retrieval as it is difficult for an injured person to hold their arms down around the sling. There will be times when going very slowly if a crew goes into the water, an immediate heave to followed by throwing the lifesling will get the job done. But then are these the conditions likely to put the crew into the drink in the first place?
