MacGregorSailors.com

Interesting thread. I am experiencing the same poor windward performance that has been discussed by others. The sail trim, reefing, limiting heel etc. discussed by other contributors are all good practices that I also use. Unfortunately, based upon my admittedly limited 26X experience I conclude that they arent even close to being sufficient to overcome the balance deficiency incorporated into the design of the X. It seems that there is not much left to work with other than removing mast rake and raising the centerboard. I would be interested in the following:
1. Moving the mast vertical requires several changes for my boat. Can anyone comment on the observed improvement from removing mast rake (86 deg to vertical)?
2. How effective is raising the centerboard i.e. speed/tacking angle?
3. It would be nice to know what level of windward performance is possible. Has anyone found a configuration which will provide 5+ knot speed to weather in 15 knot wind with 90-95 degree tacking angles using a jib and reefed or unreefed main?

Norm,

1. Vertical is probably too far. Shorten the factory forestay by 4 or 5 inches to change from 86 to 88 degrees, enjoy significant improvement.

2. You need to feel out CB angles first hand. Just guessing that 45 is too far, and your working range is from about 60 to 80 degrees. Rarely would you actually need 90 degrees, but it's convenient to just drop it. In winds over 20 knots, you might need 60 to almost balance-out weather helm. Candidly, winds over 20 knots are stretching comfort levels and capabilities for this boat.

3. You can probably get 95 to 100 on the jib, 5 or more degrees wider for the Genoa. Obviously, water speed inreases as you fall off. REmember that speed is largely determined by wind speeds. I'd guess 5 knots with 14 kn wind, 7 knots in 18 with lots of effort, and 8 knots in 22 if you're really, really good. I'm plenty happy to see 7 knots when I get everything just right (110 jib & reefed main), regardless that it's close reaching at 60 degrees.

I don't really care about close tacking since I'm not racing, and I'm not actually sailing for a fixed destination. If I gotta get someplace, I'll enjoy sailing for 4 hours, then dash to the destination with sails furled and wrapped.

An analogy: I have a basic mountain bike, total investment 200 bucks. I know that the hot ticket, titanium frame model is 10 pounds lighter, but it costs 2,000 bucks. For what advantage ?? .... extra frame weight just means I'll burn up the same calories in fewer miles - no destination, no racing, no worries, very small investment.

Comparing a Mac's wider pointing and slower sailing with a Santana or Santa Cruz is futile. Duh ... yep, they're sure faster, and point closer, no question! But I prefer my stowage, enclosed head, stand-up cabin, galley, and smaller investment ... Corvette or Winnebago? Define the goals, easy choice.

I have a 2004 M and had the same problem with rounding up all the time. I finally dumped the JUNK STOCK RUDDERS that Macgregor makes and had Joel at Idasailor.com make me a set of new rudders. It has made a tremendous difference in the way the boat handles. Also heading higher into the wind will help.

I have a 2004 M and had the same problem with rounding up all the time. I finally dumped the JUNK STOCK RUDDERS that Macgregor makes and had Joel at Idasailor.com make me a set of new rudders. It has made a tremendous difference in the way the boat handles. Also heading higher into the wind will help.

Frank C: I knew I could count on your done that experience to provide hope and put some meat on the bones. Thanks. Going in I had no expectations that a Mac would go to weather like a normal sailboat but I find it disheartening that the design criteria didnt include a requirement that the boat be reasonably well balanced in even moderate wind ranges. Oh well.

You Yours:
I have been involved in sailboat racing for over 25 years so my boat has the works: a new quality full batten main with two reef points, cunningham, home made cabin top traveler that provides great control of main shape, boom kicker, strong vang, adjustable backstay, roller furling, and the stock little used Mac jib.

What my boat doesn't have is a decent outhaul. In my opinion a 2:1 isnt adequate for making adjustments on the water when the wind picks up. Another other obvious problem is the jib track location. My track is located on top of the cabin hatch tracks. This location may be preferred for a less cluttered walking area but it is a poor choice for for sail aerodynamics. When the jib sheet is tightened to shape the leech or foot the clew is pulled too far inboard yielding an overtrimmed jib. This would also contribute to weather helm but who knows how much. I plan to relocate the jib tracks from the cabin hatch rail to an outboard position much closer to the stanchions.

Other blather:
It would really be helpful if those that are satisfied with their moderate to heavy air windward performance would measure the length of their forestay, pin to pin and publish it as a tuning mod. This would eliminate much of the angular guess work associated with setting mast rake

When I first noticed the round up problem I also checked the rudders. The shape appears to be a NACA 0012 foil which is a commonly used for sailboat rudders. The factory rudder surfaces were fair and smooth. I like to tinker so I have made a simple rudder angle indicator but have not had a chance to use it. I would be interested in specific details on why the new rudders perform much better. Do they use a different foil shape and/or has the surface area or aspect ratio been increased?

I sure hope this forum can come up with some set up changes that can significantly reduce this annoying roundup characteristic.

Sounds like I struck a nerve. This is apparently a common problem with the Mac. I sure appreciate all the advice from all you "old salts." For someone who just bought his first sailboat and has no experience adjusting rigging, this is all very helpful. At least I know where to start. I will implent some of your suggestions, one by one, and consider some of the upgrades like the rudders. I would be curious to know how many of you have invested in heavy weather sails, rather than using the stock Doyle sails which came with the boat and what kind of a difference that made sailing in 20-25 knt winds. I realize that once it blows 30+ it is probably time to head for shelter, since these boats don't seem to be designed for rough conditions-no matter what sails you are using. I would also be curious to know how many of you disconnect the engine linkage when sailing and what kind of a difference that makes in your performance. I haven't tried it yet, but find the extaa load on the helm rather unpleasant. I'm not sure, however, if disconnecting the linkage will simply make for a more pleasant steering experience or will actually improve permance. Thanks again.

Leon

Norm,
Well thanks. I have learned to "almost control" my Mac in some pretty strong winds, but not nearly the severe conditions as Darren. I'm also sure with less skill than he, Newell, Murv, Tom S and many others. You don't show boat model in your profile (or within your location field) but I recall yours is a 26X.

1. I can tell you that the rigging shop made up a forestay exactly 4" shorter than factory (my choice of 4" was just a SWAG, safe because I knew it would still be long enough to carry my new UK Genoa).
2. Bill @ Boats4Sale might have specs on the exact factory forestay length?
3. I can also guarantee that this changed rake (on my 26X) from exactly 86.0 to exactly 88.0 degrees. (Mast measured with a digital carpenter's level, trailer dead-level)
4. Finally, I can guarantee that this change made my boat much less prone to weather helm.
5. But, mast rake is just the first change required to help control the beast. I do have a split adj. backstay, 3:1 outhaul, Garhauer 12:1 RV, CDI RF for either jib or Genoa, vang & halyard led aft.
6. Next desireable changes would be a stronger boom, main traveler, new full-batten mainsail and improving the centerboard, and rudders? ... maybe somewhat more surface area.

Of course, I can't guarantee what merit or demerit may result by taking mast rake to 89 degrees. (I'd guess that there's only about a quarter-degree available in the turnbuckle). However, I recall reading elsewhere that a vertical mast induces other disadvantages.

I always disconect my motor when sailing AFTER clearing all objects heading out . Pull the motor up and lean it to the port side. Steering is a lot easier and you don't have the drag of the motor in the water. Another item that really helps for steering is a steering knob. I bought one on Ebay and it works great. Much easier steering in tight spots. I use it all the time.

In reference to the rudders. I watch www.macgregor@list.sailnet.net and www.macgregor@list.sailjazz.net all the time. Story after story was other mac owners getting new Ida Sailor rudders and what a tremendous improvement they made. So after sailing my 04 Mac for 1 1/2 yrs I bought a set. They are what everybody else said GREAT. I contacted Joel at www.idasailor.com and asked him about rudders for the 26M and he said they didn't have them in their line but if I wanted to try a set he would make them up. Which he did. I really like the performance.

Thanks Hamshog. I will disconnect my engine linkage next time I'm on the water, hopefully this coming weekend, and see how it feels. The system my came with requires tools to disengage, so I have been a bit reluctant to do it out on choppy water (very cold too.) I saw the setup offered by Blue Water Yachts, which looks much better than mine and is supposed to be able to be disconnected and reconnected in seconds. Looks a lot more solid than mine as well. I need to call them to see if it can be set up for my Evinrude E-Tec 50. Are you using the stock system as well or some sort of upgrade? As for the rudders.... So far, you are the fourth person who has given these high performance rudders a big thumbs up. I guess I have a few upgrades to look forward to. Halyard leading aft to cockpit with slugs, performance rudders and perhpas a new steering linkage system. I wasn't expecting to throw a bunch of money into upgrades on a boat I owned for less than a year, but if it improves performance, it should be worth it. I will start by tightening up the rig first, however. For those of you who have halyards leading aft and had it professionally installed, what did the setup run you? Arena Yacht Sales quoted me $400 for the sail slugs, all the blocks and clutch plus installation. Seems high, but they told me that to install all the deck hardware requires opening up the cabin area, removing foam floation, installing the hardware (backings) and re-installing the foam floation & sealing everything up. Sounds quite elaborate. Has anyone out there gone through a similar setup and if so, what was the price?
Leon

Cost of lines led aft. Adds up. Check the catalogs for a couple cheek blocks, a rope clutch, and a couple 3/4 inch long one quarter inch thick bolts. Use the same washers and nuts.

Leon,

I really don't have any good answers but have a question and some comments.

Just wondering if you set your mast rake using the tape measure method in the manual. Mine says measure from the mask rasing system holes to the top of the rub rail; it should be 156 inches according to the book. The other day I set my mast up and I was 3 inches or so short. I set it to factory although this defies the convention wisdom of raking back to reduce weather helm; I was raking forward more than the book says. I haven't noticed much difference either way.

Today I was out in winds gusting to over 26 knots and had trouble controlling the rounding up even before it hit the 26 knots. After reefing the main and putting up a jib vs the genoa it was much more controllable but perhaps didn't point as well as I would have liked. My boat actually had some lee helm before the gusts which was annoying.

Another thing I did while adjusting the rake was to tension the outer and inner shrouds. If I had them too tight the mast rotation was difficult. I'm wondering if the cut of the stock main is simply not optimized for this boat. The rudders mentioned interest me and I may look into that.

As to the halyard led aft: I posted some photo links of my setup in an earlier post. It doesn't require any drilling other than that required for the clutch mounting.

Let's keep working on this problem and posting our results. If you get a chance you might take photos of your jib and main. Try to show the jib luff sag and the draft location of the main.

BB

BB,

I am planning to adjust the rig and hopefully go sailing on Saturday if it isn't raining too hard. I've had my share of sailing in the rain last month. From all the advice I received, I need to get that forestay and shrouds quite tight. I'll see what that does to the weather helm issue as well as mast rotation. I'll take some photos of my rig/sails and post them when I get a chance.

As for your halyard aft setup, I'm a bit confused. Wouldn't you need a clutch near the mast so as not interfere with roation? If the halyard is held only by the clutch near the cockpit, and you just have a cheeck block by the mast, I would think that the mast wouldn't rotate to port and if it rotates to starboard, it would loosen the halyard. I'm sure this isn't the case and I'm just missing something. We'll stay in touch.

Leon

Leon,
There is a block held by a shackle to a hole in the mast plate. This causes the halyard to pull straight down on the mast and doesn't seem to pull it either way. I do wonder if the extra downward force on the mast makes rotation more difficult. Next time I'm out I'll try cleating the halyard to the mast instead and see if it rotates better. See the photos below.

Dan

http://www.rapidnet.com/~dt2000/non_web ... A60024.JPG

http://www.rapidnet.com/~dt2000/non_web ... A60025.JPG

http://www.rapidnet.com/~dt2000/non_web ... A60026.JPG

http://www.rapidnet.com/~dt2000/non_web ... A60027.JPG

These are from the thread at:
http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/viewt ... &&start=30