Degree of a 26X before she rolls?

[Divecoz]

Humm I know a number of sailors and scuba divers and fishermen that live on the Sea of Cortez and none has ever mentioned 40 to 50 MPH winds on anything but rare occasion.. Just Like Here SWF.. Its BTW a VERY popular winter have for boaters from the USA and Canada and So Much so, That Special federal laws are in place for bringing boats in...
My 2005 M has no less than one third of the hull being " Fairly" flat.. agreed its no deep V nor does it have chines or stabilizers but IMHO its not your typical soda bottle hull / sailboat.
Water conditions.. There are rollers ... waves .. Cresting waves and chop among others we need to all be calling apples apples.. I dont think we are..
If your in big seas on any boat ( any boat that any of us can afford! ) power or sail, you dont just run where you want.. Its Up one side down the other " Tacking " again to go up and over again..at an angle all the time at an angle. Very few boats are meant to attack large seas head on.. or abeam.. Kind of an S without that top or bottom flat spot..

[grady]

Macs are sensitive to overloading and weight distribution. A 26 classic turtled here in San Diego bay because it had 11 people on deck and nobody below decks. Furthermore, most of the weight was forward and the boat was sailing under Genoa alone, so it's CE was forward. With weight high and forward, and being overloaded with typical weight below decks, the boat flipped when caught by an unexpected gust.

Even so, it didn't fill with water and remained well above the surface of the water. With lines and practice, a crew of two likely could have rolled it back up.

The "nominal" angle of vanishing stability for a Mac is 110 degrees. That's the theoretical angle from beyond which the boat will roll, presuming all else is equal, with ballast in. This is why a mac should pop back up from a knockdown as long as ballast is in.

Without ballast that number is only 70 degrees, which could easily happen in a blow or strong waves.

I beleive they determined that it also did not have the water balast tank full.

[BOAT]

My dad sailed in that stiff stuff all the time - so to me I never thoughbt it was a bad thing. The Aquarius 23 we had was VERY HEAVY really heavy. It was a round bottomed pig and it was a little tippy but everything that boat did happened in slow motion. Not fast moves or scary stuff on the Aquarius. It was a perfect boat for a beginner too.

We do notice that our MAC 'boat' likes to sail between 15 and 30 degrees when the wind is at only 15 MPH (with all sails up) but it's got a very predictable weather helm and I would be surprized if it knocked down before rounding up. If i forced the helm away from the wind I guess I might be able to knock it down in a good blow. if the boat was going to remain at 20 to 30 degrees without relief I think I would start reefing genoa but if it's just gusting I guess we have become used to the heel angle. If you need to make a sandwich or take a crap you can also put the wind abeam and let the sails all the way out. She rides pretty well upright on a beam reach.

I dunno - in your hunter it was probably easy to take a crap in 15MPH wind. The Aquarius was like that too. In the MAC if I'm close hauled on a starbord tack I would probably fall off the potty.

Is this why everyone says our boats are "bad"?

[BOAT]

PS, winds off the tip of CABO ar 28 MPH right now as I write this.

[Divecoz]

I feel you made some very good points......

We do notice that our MAC 'boat' likes to sail between 15 and 30 degrees when the wind is at only 15 MPH (with all sails up) YEP MINE TOO but it's got a very predictable weather helm YEP MINE TOO and I would be surprised if it knocked down before rounding up. YEP SO WOULD I If i forced the helm away from the wind I guess I might be able to knock it down in a good blow. if the boat was going to remain at 20 to 30 degrees without relief I think I would start reefing genoa but if it's just gusting I guess we have become used to the heel angle. I WOULD TOO BUT MY DAUGHTER INSIST THAT RUB RAIL NEEDS TO BE RUBBING WATER AS MUCH OF THE TIME AS POSSIBLE If you need to make a sandwich or take a crap you can also put the wind abeam and let the sails all the way out. She rides pretty well upright on a beam reach.

I dunno - in your hunter it was probably easy to take a crap in 15MPH wind. The Aquarius was like that too. In the MAC if I'm close hauled on a starboard tack I would probably fall off the potty.

Is this why everyone says our boats are "bad"?

IMHO Thats mostly B.S.A. Like My brothers neighbor across the street, after he made a couple wise cracksaboout my and he got SHUT UP and Shut Down when it was stated that ... I... dont run aground and DAMAGE MY Boat every-time I ...... take it out..

[Russ]

There is nothing "wrong" with our boats. They are what they are. Light, easily trailered, large cabin power sailors. They are NOT keel boats and they are not fast sailing boats. With all these features, weight is the biggest compromise. Weight that keeps your Aquarius 23 really heavy and stable. My Hunter could pound through waves and was very slow to react to wind. But it had 5000 pounds of steel under her. The Mac only weighs 2500 pounds which makes it very easy to trailer. With all that said, the Mac is a remarkably stable and safe boat. It is VERY tender at first until the ballast kicks in. This takes some getting used to if you come from a traditional ballasted boat. The same high freeboard that gives her lots of cabin room also gives her lots of windage. Racing class boats like J boats have little or no cabin and low profiles. Different boat, different end user.
I bought my Mac because I want to trailer and launch it myself. Bring it home and work on it if I want to and have a decent amount of cabin for family to sleep in. It's perfect for us, yet I know the limitations and won't take it out in heavy winds and seas. Just not prudent with the experience of my crew.

I also agree with you and coz. There is a sweet spot with Mac that is more heel than most boats. It has a lot of weather helm which I find to be a safe thing. I only worry about snapping a rudder or steering component.

PS, winds off the tip of CABO ar 28 MPH right now as I write this.

Where are you getting your weather info?

Average wind speeds are fairly nominal according to this.


I will say this. I hear so many claim they sail in winds of 25-35mph. I believe Highlander, he's nuts and that's how he rolls. After I bought a anemometer, I realized that wind speeds were not as fast as I thought. Measured 25mph was really howling and whipped up choppy swells the size of my boat. Beyond my comfort zone with this boat. I have an anemometer on top of my house; an accurate $500 Davis weather station. Last week it was measuring 40mph winds. I went outside and could barely stand in one place. That's a lot of wind.

[Divecoz]

Hi Boat:
I could well be mistaken but IIRC The Tip / Cabo is considered to be in the North Pacific.. Sea Of Cortez and Pacific is IIRC is a straight line from just north of Mazatlan to Santiago.. The Sea of Cortez is Huge .. There are a couple board members who have sailed down there quiet a bit IIRC .. My friends live aboout?? 150 miles north of Cabo / The Tip.. Just like any " Horn ".. the winds are the worst on the horn..My friends live on the Eastern Coast of the SOC.. in and around Guaymas Here this map shows the SOC line being even Farther North That I thought it was.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_California
That Sea is 700 MILES long.. and Much Of It is Protected by mountains..
Thanks Russ..for that weather cut and paste I have a number of friends in that area and never heard from them , what was posted here.. And.. 2 MPH is a long ways from 28 mph..Go Figure with a board name of Divecoz I would have a lot of friends in Mexico hahahaha

PS, winds off the tip of CABO ar 28 MPH right now as I write this.

[yukonbob]

Two weekends ago we were heading down the coast to a small town that we frequent about 16 miles south of our home port. We generally power there due to the 1.5 mile wide channel we take to get there (its a whole lot of tacking to get there if we sail) Coming out of the inlet towards the town it opens up a bunch and the winds picked up ...20 gusting to 30. Bare Pole we hit 30-35 degrees a bunch of times (The tide was coming in so the waves weren't playing to big a part of it). So yes Bare pole will knock you down, but I'm with whoever said a 'knockdown' is pole on the water (That would really get the heart racing) but it definitely pushed us around a bunch.

As for the avoiding the small craft advisory I don't agree that these are that small a boat. I've been out in a 14 ft alum setting pots in a SCA…thats who the advisories are for, and open bowed power boats. We shouldn't discredit these boats that much. It can be uncomfortable in a SCA but as long as you maintain the helm these boats take it with no problems. On the other hand there has to be a fairly good reason to leave the home dock in a SCA (ie if there is someone meeting us in a southern town for the weekend or to retrieve pots before i leave for the week…thats like 400 bucks worth of gear!) If we decide to leave in a SCA we take the time and put everything away and tie everything off really well on deck. The first ten min are nerve racking but then it's just anothert day…and it gets easier each time. Coming home in following seas, I won't question heading home in a SCA and the odd time a gale warning…only done that three times and it was really intense, but we made it without problems. Every time we've returned in a gale warning we didn't find out til we got back.
" Geeze that was rougher than normal? Check the weather…updated marine forecast for Lynn cannal…Gale warning through today and into the evening…oh thats why?!"

[133bhp]

I understand by definition the really rough stuff it can get too busy to reach for a vid cam, but has anyone an example vid of some rough conditions? be fascinated to see as haven't come across anything particularly so far

With little sailing experience, the first encounter with difficult conditions, I'm very tense until I get used to it and realize that although I'm getting chucked around, its actually got through all sorts of rough stuff. In fact, my worst situation was getting hit by a rib's wake on a flat river just as I had dropped the ballast! - like holding on to a bucking bronco, I don't know how, but it stayed upright.

as an aside, just recently, in the bay of biscay, moribhan etc for three weeks, where there must be a hundreds of thousand large boats in marinas, but we saw literally just a handful out at sea in the blowy conditions, sometimes none at all. yet here we were, on a derided little trailer sailor doing okay. maybe its ignorance is bliss but I came way pretty impressed with the mac .

[BOAT]

You guys gotta stop using weather stations that are on the LAND. Go to the SAILFLOW website and see the wind speed out on the WATER.

And who sails at * oclock at night?? The wind speed on the WATER 1 mile off the tip of Cabo was 28 MPH at 6PM.

[BOAT]

Here is the wind model for 8AM TODAY. You can see it's calm near my home but up near lompoc and the bay area the strong winds come in close to shore (ps - look at the littl tippy top of the sea of cortez down in the lower right corner - in middle of the sea it's 20 to 25 mph)

[Russ]

You guys gotta stop using weather stations that are on the LAND. Go to the SAILFLOW website and see the wind speed out on the WATER.

And who sails at 8 oclock at night?? The wind speed on the WATER 1 mile off the tip of Cabo was 28 MPH at 6PM.

That's why I asked where did you get your info. Seems to be quite a bit of difference on your map. Also as mentioned, the tip of any land will create higher winds.
8 O'Clock is the difference in our time zones. You posted at 7:43 my local time (MST), I posted 8pm (MST) my local time.
FYI, I love to sail at 8 O'Clock at night. In fact night sailing is one of our favorite times (Gets dark here at 10pm)

Back to the thread topic. The Mac is capable of heavy winds and seas as shown by Roger's website video of poor Mike Inmon out there in that junk. But who enjoys that stuff? I guess there are some like Highlander
The Mac will get tossed around in high winds, but with ballast it's very safe. Yes, it will lean over, even bare poles, but it won't stay there and will pop back upright. You may get wet and lose your lunch. Truly knocking down (mast slapping water) is pretty hard to do with a Mac. Totally flipping the Mac is extremely hard to do with a proper ballast and loading, I don't think I've ever heard of a case where it has happened.
I'm a wimpy sailor and don't enjoy howling winds and heavy seas. It frightens my novice crew also. I don't want them to fear the boat. For others, it's an adventure.

--Russ

[BOAT]

[*]I'm a wimpy sailor and don't enjoy howling winds and heavy seas. It frightens my novice crew also. I don't want them to fear the boat. For others, it's an adventure.[*]

I do not like it either. I am not 15 years old anymore and I don't have my dad to rely on like I did when i was a kid. The other thing was that my dad had never been sea sick - EVER - not even once. And he was in the Navy for 4 years during the Asiatic Pacific Campaign. (That's WW2)

So here at an older age and pretty much alone until my wife learns this stuff I too am not please to go into the wind and waves. It does not scare me one bit, but on the MAC it's just too uncomfortable and by the time I reef the main and running around below decks securing gear and trying to drive at the same time my stomach starts to hurt. Also the last time we went out in high winds under motor alone we got soaked in the cockpit. The water sprays everywhere.

I just did not know that the boat would heel over 30 degrees without sails up - that's never happened to me on this boat -

[*]FYI, I love to sail at 8 O'Clock at night. In fact night sailing is one of our favorite times (Gets dark here at 10pm)[*]

GEEZE I totally forgot about that stuff! I remember in Oregon it was still light at 10PM!! Wow, it's not like that here at all!

I'm gonna be real carefull with that ballast tank based on what you guys are saying here - I thought there was over 300 pounds of permanent ballast in the boat - but obviously that's not making a difference? I will start working on a alarm for the ballast tank right now! You guys have managed to scare me.

[Russ]

I just did not know that the boat would heel over 30 degrees without sails up - that's never happened to me on this boat -
I'm gonna be real carefull with that ballast tank based on what you guys are saying here - I thought there was over 300 pounds of permanent ballast in the boat - but obviously that's not making a difference? I will start working on a alarm for the ballast tank right now! You guys have managed to scare me.

Mine has heeled over bare poles, but it didn't stay there. I have a roller genny that gives windage as well as a dodger. It was an initial gust that blew us. You and I grew up on sailboats and probably understand these things. My wife did not and when that happened the first time she shrieked thinking we were going over. I had to assure her it's a smaller, lighter boat than the Hunter. She's still not sold that it won't go over no matter what I say. For many people, seeing something that is normally level heel over is not natural no matter how you explain the design.

If you fill the ballast tank, you will be fine. I think the 300lbs was added for safety for those who forget to fill the ballast. Without ballast, if you got knocked down, the 300lbs would probably pull the boat back up if you let go of everything. I actually sailed last weekend without any ballast, winds were light and downwind. Wouldn't recommend it though.

Don't sweat it. Like I said, there are literally tens of thousands of these boats out there. I know of 2-3 cases where they capsized and each one was from empty/incorrect ballast, overloaded people on deck, drunk captain, heavy throttle. Statistically, I'm amazed at how safe these boats seem to be. I know of one case where one sunk and that was a Mac/Venture 23 under very unusual circumstances.
Just realize the Mac is built to trailer and is LIGHT. Extremely light. That's a good thing. Makes it towable without a Semi. But it also makes it tender for a 26' boat.

Go out in a heavy wind and turn her broadside during a gust. Bare poles and high deck will catch wind and blow the boat over a bit. Again, not mast slapping knock down, but it will heel. Probably for a seasoned sailor it will be nothing, but to landlubbers, it freaks them out.

--Russ

[BOAT]

Yeah, I'll try that. Broadside into the wind usually means the swells are coming broadside down here where I am. That alone will make you roll left and right pretty good even in a keel boat. I guess I never noticed if any of that was windage. In those conditions it's the rudders I always worry about. I don't like to hear the rudders bang or the helm squeak - it makes me think something is gonna break. Although, I guess if you break off your rudders you can still motor out of it because the motor will still provide steering. That's a nice feature. On all out other boats the motor was bolted to the transom in the straight position and did not turn. Without the tiller or rudders there was no real control.

My last experience with 30 MPH winds on "boat" was not a good one - I got sea sick trying to raise the main. It was rocking back and forth so much I had to hold on to the mast and not let go. After I finally got rigged I had to have my wife take the helm for about an hour because my stomach hurt so bad from looking up at the top of the mast while trying to raise the main.