Anyone know what's behind the forward deck liner?

[Highlander]

Like I said remove floatation for ness. mods & then replace it back into the cavities it came out from , all the floatation I removed for my bowsprit installation was all put back into place after bowsprit was installed , when I installed my radio in the bulk head above the dinnette i just cut the floatation blocks into smaller sizes and forced & squeezed them all back in again about 90% , the six 8" dock fenders I have sitting on the deck above this area is most likely more than twice the floatation of all that floatation in them area's anyway , when i installed my bilge blower & wash down pump in the aft corners I was able to put it all back in above them by just cutting them into 1/3 block sizes then they could be squeezed into the round corners where the 10"x4" x 6" floatation blocks would not fit u just have to be creative, also any small amounts that can not be replaced can be replaced with 1/2"x6" sheets of floatation that can be had for free in most packaging behind the liner in said places , I have also added 2"x 8"x 24" floatation blocks around my aft cabin area

J

[Divecoz]

I respect Kevin's Knowledge and Expertise a lot, but I don't agree with his point of view this time.. Removing some foam for fear of a lawsuit? Somewhere down the road? For fear that now the boat would actually sink to the bottom? These boats are not sinkers.. and someone having time and initiative to dissect this boat, knowingly , looking, for missing foam? Whose boat are they going to compare it with? This is not machine applied ( pumped in, in now one solid mass..) this is Packing foam JAMBED..into wherever they can HIDE it.. Most of us have extra PFD's stored in the cabin ( we carry 7, I have Never had 7 people on our Mac..) .. Many of us have fenders stored in the cabins as well .. The dang Porto Potty Holding Tank, UNLESS full to the brim YUCK!!! Will offer considerable floatation.. and most are attached to the sole..

[kmclemore]

OK, well, I've pretty much said my piece. Some agree, some disagree. So be it.

I'll leave you with this from the MacGregor manuals:

"DO NOT REMOVE ANY OF THE FOAM FLOTATION BLOCKS."

...and given this is extremely clearly spelled out in big, bold letters in the product manufacturer's instructions, the intentional removal of same could pretty easily be proven as "intentional negligence".

[raycarlson]

with 6000+ boats sold,all to poor people like us, Macs are probably the most modified boat out there. I've never heard of any lawsuit on any brand of boat being argued in a court reguarding owner modifications. There's just no money there for profitable suing, most all states accept * sold as is* as a buyer beware warning sufficient to preclude a unsatisfied buyer from filing future claims. even a shister lawyer won't touch a case where he has a very low possibility of collecting his fee's, especially from a non-corperate private mostly blue collar owner who probably wasn't aware his niehborhood mechanic friend removed some scrap pieces of flotation last time he did some work on the boat. There is a requirement to prove the owner knowingly endangered another,which just can't be proved. along those lines I thought i recalled you installing in cabin fuel tanks,thats as much of a hazard as the foam issure,not only to your own family but to other nearby boaters as well, don't you worry about that at all. It just seems to me if we had to consider such minor issues we may as well switch over to remote controlled model boats, but then we might injure a duck or some silly thing and still get sued by greenpeace.I suppose they could sue me for thee extra hundred bucks i keep in my checkbook as they can't touch my 401k,railroad retirement,house, or one vehicle,not much left after that.

[Divecoz]

I tend to agree Ray and yet I understand Kevin's Concern.,., We too are Protected.. Everything we own, every dime we have, is protected by a Irrevocable Trust.. We will have that document reviewed by a Florida Lawyer Specializing in just That... Trust... once we arrive in Florida.Along with all that I carry a Million Dollar Umbrella Policy which clearly states .. They pay the first $1,000,000.00 So its in their best interest to be representing me with aka a Clarence Darrow type.. .

with 6000+ boats sold,all to poor people like us, Macs are probably the most modified boat out there. I've never heard of any lawsuit on any brand of boat being argued in a court reguarding owner modifications. There's just no money there for profitable suing, most all states accept * sold as is* as a buyer beware warning sufficient to preclude a unsatisfied buyer from filing future claims. even a shister lawyer won't touch a case where he has a very low possibility of collecting his fee's, especially from a non-corperate private mostly blue collar owner who probably wasn't aware his niehborhood mechanic friend removed some scrap pieces of flotation last time he did some work on the boat. There is a requirement to prove the owner knowingly endangered another,which just can't be proved. along those lines I thought i recalled you installing in cabin fuel tanks,thats as much of a hazard as the foam issure,not only to your own family but to other nearby boaters as well, don't you worry about that at all. It just seems to me if we had to consider such minor issues we may as well switch over to remote controlled model boats, but then we might injure a duck or some silly thing and still get sued by greenpeace.I suppose they could sue me for thee extra hundred bucks i keep in my checkbook as they can't touch my 401k,railroad retirement,house, or one vehicle,not much left after that.

[Catigale]

Okay - without malice to anyone, or perhaps equal to everyone..lets kill this thread........

Legal opinions are free everywhere....except from lawyers...I think we are all free to make up our minds what we want to do having read the wide range of opinions here.....

[Russ]

I also have great respect for Kevin and his experience. A prudent person would take his advise. Legally, it's the wisest.

With that said,

Statistically speaking the Mac is an amazingly safe boat. For the number of these things out there, you'd expect a lot more accidents. The few that I've seen were caused by stupidity and in each case the boat did not rely on the flotation. The sinking of the Venture of Newport story is most interesting. What caused that boat to totally turtle upside down and fill with water? I don't think this would have happened with a newer M with the permanent ballast or any water ballasted boat with the ballast in place.

At 3:56 in this video you see the boat held on its side and no water flowing into the cabin. It doesn't want stay that way and the ballast pulls it back up. This is convincing enough for me to know the boat is safe from knockdown capsizing. We hole the boat, we have other issues, but hopefully what put the hole in it will be something on shore or I'll have time to react.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjgJfl73eX0

It's no surprise to see how this happened. Add sails and wind....still it did not need that flotation.


Then you have this rocket scientist. No ballast other than the alcholol he consumed (at .217 he was ripe), 12 people on board and full throttle at night. Still, the flotation was not a factor, the tragedy was from the cabin flooding and bing inverted, not the boat sinking sinking.
http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


The most prudent thing is to leave the flotation in there. Frankly, there is no science to this flotation. It's no doubt foam waste pulled from the dumpster. This stuff comes in all shapes and sizes. Clearly a hodge podge of scraps that Pedro at the factory is told to dispose of anyplace he can inside the boat's voids. I'm sure it does the job. Looking at my boat, there is foam above the mirror on the starboard side. None on the port side. So if that foam is used, the boat will be leaning on the side.

I have no faith in the marketing photo. The only foam that is in the water is under the center v-berth and the aft engine well area. Over the mirror, above the v-berth (original post comment) doesn't look to be wet. So how is this? My guess is no engine (another photo with an engine would impress me) and probably empty ballast (eg: air). It's nice Roger mounted the optional hank on jib for the photo op. Let's see the same swamped boat in some chop and see if it turtles and knocks those men off the deck. I don't see an unsinkable boat as being really safer, especially when most of the cabin is underwater.

It's your boat and your risk. Do what you feel is prudent. For me, I love that new cabinet I made above my mirror. I also don't plan on taking my boat to the Bahamas with 4 guests onboard.

--Russ

[RobertB]

Then you have this rocket scientist. No ballast other than the alcholol he consumed (at .217 he was ripe),

Maybe the bottles of booz he emptied provided floatation?

[Phil M]

Okay - without malice to anyone, or perhaps equal to everyone..lets kill this thread........

Legal opinions are free everywhere....except from lawyers...I think we are all free to make up our minds what we want to do having read the wide range of opinions here.....

Now why?

If someone has something else to say - I do not - let them add. Killing a thread should serve a more obvious purpose.

[innervations]

Short question. Really reticent to extend the thread. Like others in this thread I have removed the styrofoam above the mirror in the

However, I am more concerned about putting the foam back with my entertainment system , VHF and other electronics and the risk of fire or overheating than I am of sinking. Same with batteries and other mods.

Is this a concern for others?

[RobertB]

I would make certain you have adequate air space to cool any electronics. I would never put foam in contact with a hot surface.

[Québec 1]

I also have great respect for Kevin and his experience. A prudent person would take his advise. Legally, it's the wisest.

With that said,

Statistically speaking the Mac is an amazingly safe boat. For the number of these things out there, you'd expect a lot more accidents. The few that I've seen were caused by stupidity and in each case the boat did not rely on the flotation. The sinking of the Venture of Newport story is most interesting. What caused that boat to totally turtle upside down and fill with water? I don't think this would have happened with a newer M with the permanent ballast or any water ballasted boat with the ballast in place.

At 3:56 in this video you see the boat held on its side and no water flowing into the cabin. It doesn't want stay that way and the ballast pulls it back up. This is convincing enough for me to know the boat is safe from knockdown capsizing. We hole the boat, we have other issues, but hopefully what put the hole in it will be something on shore or I'll have time to react.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjgJfl73eX0

It's no surprise to see how this happened. Add sails and wind....still it did not need that flotation.


Then you have this rocket scientist. No ballast other than the alcholol he consumed (at .217 he was ripe), 12 people on board and full throttle at night. Still, the flotation was not a factor, the tragedy was from the cabin flooding and bing inverted, not the boat sinking sinking.
http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html


The most prudent thing is to leave the flotation in there. Frankly, there is no science to this flotation. It's no doubt foam waste pulled from the dumpster. This stuff comes in all shapes and sizes. Clearly a hodge podge of scraps that Pedro at the factory is told to dispose of anyplace he can inside the boat's voids. I'm sure it does the job. Looking at my boat, there is foam above the mirror on the starboard side. None on the port side. So if that foam is used, the boat will be leaning on the side.

I have no faith in the marketing photo. The only foam that is in the water is under the center v-berth and the aft engine well area. Over the mirror, above the v-berth (original post comment) doesn't look to be wet. So how is this? My guess is no engine (another photo with an engine would impress me) and probably empty ballast (eg: air). It's nice Roger mounted the optional hank on jib for the photo op. Let's see the same swamped boat in some chop and see if it turtles and knocks those men off the deck. I don't see an unsinkable boat as being really safer, especially when most of the cabin is underwater.

It's your boat and your risk. Do what you feel is prudent. For me, I love that new cabinet I made above my mirror. I also don't plan on taking my boat to the Bahamas with 4 guests onboard.

--Russ

But if two guests are okay put my name in. Do small dogs count and will you be bringing the Admiral?à
Q1

[Highlander]

Short question. Really reticent to extend the thread. Like others in this thread I have removed the styrofoam above the mirror in the

However, I am more concerned about putting the foam back with my entertainment system , VHF and other electronics and the risk of fire or overheating than I am of sinking. Same with batteries and other mods.

Is this a concern for others?

Thats what vented or nonvented heat boxes are for u can also make ur own

J

[Russ]

I wonder if adding a bowsprit and extra headsails would cause an issue with an insurance claim.

*ducks*