Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats
User avatar
seahouse
Admiral
Posts: 2182
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Niagara at Lake Erie, Ontario. 2011 MacM, 60 hp E-Tec
Contact:

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by seahouse »

Hey Wasp18- :D

Fast charging just about any battery will reduce its lifespan, so it's a good idea you had, to slow charge
it (any time you can). The slow charge is not a longer lasting charge, though, assuming you charged to completion in both cases.

Using the voltage to measure the degree of discharge is not the best way to do it, but it is the only way you have of determining the state of charge (or condition) of an AGM battery.

The most reliable way to determine state of charge of a battery is to use a hydrometer and measure the specific gravity in each cell.

Unfortunately, this cannot be done with an AGM battery because the electrolyte is not free (it's absorbed into the glass mat), and the cells are sealed and not accessible.

A brand new battery like yours will improve initially in its performance for the first few dozen cycles or so, then, like all batteries, it begins to gradually lower in performance over the remainder of its service life. If your voltmeter is sensitive enough to resolve this, and you monitor it closely, you might be able to see this in your voltage readings. But be sure to let the battery sit for several hours after charging before taking your reading to insure you are not reading a short-term residual charge.

Regards- Brian :wink:
Last edited by seahouse on Mon May 28, 2012 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Boblee
Admiral
Posts: 1702
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:08 am
Location: Berrigan, Riverina Australia boatless at present

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by Boblee »

Don't think anybody has mentioned yet that any batteries used in the boat should be sealed type so that you don't get explosive gases when charging, also the most important precaution for long life is keeping the batteries fully charged and not taking them down too low.
Still have the original battery in our 2006 :macm: and it has been fully discharged a couple of times but not for long, be careful with some of the agm and calcium batteries as if they get down too low they won't charge without a high voltage charger to recondition them.
User avatar
Catigale
Site Admin
Posts: 10421
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:59 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Admiral .............Catigale 2002X.......Lots of Harpoon Hobie 16 Skiffs....Island 17
Contact:

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by Catigale »

The danger of explosion on board from hydrogen gas from batteries on our boats has been discussed and is non-existent. People who want to sell you sealed batteries make this stuff up. AGMs have advantages but a safety factor from hydrogen evolution is not one of them.
User avatar
Divecoz
Admiral
Posts: 3803
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:54 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: PORT CHARLOTTE FLORIDA 05 M Mercury 50 H.P. Big Foot Bill at Boats 4 Sail is my Hero

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by Divecoz »

Thank you cat... Sometimes I feel Like I am reading..... a time share presentation on this board..
Catigale wrote:The danger of explosion on board from hydrogen gas from batteries on our boats has been discussed and is non-existent. People who want to sell you sealed batteries make this stuff up. AGMs have advantages but a safety factor from hydrogen evolution is not one of them.
User avatar
Hamin' X
Site Admin
Posts: 3464
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:02 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Hermiston, OR-----------2001 26X DF-50 Suz---------------(Now Sold)
Contact:

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by Hamin' X »

Here is more information on AGM batteries from a US manufacturer:

http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf

Some of what Brian says is true and some false, or outdated. I don't think that he is intentionally misleading anyone, but may not have kept up with all advances in technology. As with all matters, I urge everyone to do their own research and decide what is best for their own installation and usage patterns. My opinion is mine and may be worth just what you pay for it.

~Rich
User avatar
DaveB
Admiral
Posts: 2543
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:34 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Cape Coral, Florida,1997 Mac. X, 2013 Merc.50hp Big Foot, sold 9/10/15

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by DaveB »

It is rare but If one had a 10 amp automatic battry charger that pluged into 2 house wet batteries and a cell failed and charger continued to try to put 14.8 volts in a Wet cell deep cycle battery it would cause excesive lose of water and without cking would go below plate level causeing the Gas to excape.
This over a week or two could cause a explosion if one opened the closed cabin and Lit a flame.
They would first smell the strong aroma and wouldn't light a flame.
I have been testing group 27 and 24 AGM batteries now for past 2years on Pool Comercial Vac. Systems on our major water park (Sunsplash, Cape Coral, FL).
We have 3 of these (sharks) that suck up sand and debree in pools and 12 volt motors are largest size of a elect. trolling motor. These carts are often abused and tilt to 90 degrees and no problem and they get discharged to 50 % .
They run non stop for 4 hrs.
Hope this helps.
Personally on my boat I like the $80 ,29 amp hr wet cell Deep cycle with twins on my boat.
A lot of this info is already posted as well as useing twin golf 6 volt batteries that I also liked and used .
If cost wasn't the factor than I would change to AGM or Gell Batteries. $190 VS $80 for single battery.
Dave
Catigale wrote:The danger of explosion on board from hydrogen gas from batteries on our boats has been discussed and is non-existent. People who want to sell you sealed batteries make this stuff up. AGMs have advantages but a safety factor from hydrogen evolution is not one of them.
User avatar
seahouse
Admiral
Posts: 2182
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Niagara at Lake Erie, Ontario. 2011 MacM, 60 hp E-Tec
Contact:

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by seahouse »

Hey Cat! :D
The danger of explosion on board from hydrogen gas from batteries on our boats has been discussed and is non-existent. People who want to sell you sealed batteries make this stuff up. AGMs have advantages but a safety factor from hydrogen evolution is not one of them.


Absolutely correct! But another reason this is so is that AGM batteries do, in fact, vent some oxygen and hydrogen out through the valves. They were designed to do this, but they do at a less significant rate than regular unsealed batteries.

Hey Rich! :D
Some of what Brian says is true and some false, or outdated. I don't think that he is intentionally misleading anyone, but may not have kept up with all advances in technology. As with all matters, I urge everyone to do their own research and decide what is best for their own installation and usage patterns. My opinion is mine and may be worth just what you pay for it.


Whoa – "shooting the messenger because you don't like the message" - no need to get personal - you can address me directly, I’m here, and I won’t bite your head off – honest!

I reviewed your link – thanks for that, Concorde is a well-known name in the industry. There's really no new info there, though- what are you referring to? They are a reputable company, and no where (and believe me, if it were so, they would be claiming it) do they make the (false) claim that an AGM will save you money by lasting longer. They will leave those claims to the less-reputable companies.

If I said anything false (or outdated), I would appreciate knowing about it specifically, instead of some backhanded dismissal that really does nothing to help anyone here or contribute to the knowledge dissemination function of this forum, thank you.

Note that I have gone back and removed the following line from a previous post to WASP18…

“but AGM batteries are more sensitive to fast charging than flooded cell batteries”

... which, of course, is a characteristic of Gel cell batteries which I mistook with AGM’s.

Also note that I did present the correct information in my very first post (7th from the top) on this topic, in which I stated…

“AGM’s can charge and discharge at higher amperage rates than lead-acid”.

So – my question remains – what specifically are you claiming is false? Can I clarify something for you? I ask only because I do place a high priority on giving reasonably accurate information.

- Brian. :wink:
User avatar
Hamin' X
Site Admin
Posts: 3464
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:02 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Hermiston, OR-----------2001 26X DF-50 Suz---------------(Now Sold)
Contact:

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by Hamin' X »

Brian,

First off, you are the one that got "personal" first, by calling me out. I was trying to ignore the personal aspect of it and only coming back with facts, but you kept challenging.

The main falsehood was the charging aspect of AGM's that you now say you have corrected. Good on you for correcting it, but please do so in followup post next time. Readers (me included) are not in the habit of reading the entire thread each time we visit the forum. There are other problems with what you have said, such as AGM and flooded cell having the same chemistry. This is not entirely true. Again, I urge the readers to do some basic research.

I use and only make reference to Concorde's Lifeline and SunExtender AGM batteries, as not all AGM's are created equal. There are many types of flooded cell batteries, but for simplicity, I do not refer to stationary, or traction types, only "deep cycle" marine/RV and golf cart batteries.

Lifeline batteries have a life span of ~500 cycles, when discharged 80%. Golf cart batteries have a life of ~225 cycles. Cycle life on marine/rv batteries is more difficult to find and not often published.

For usage such as my boat, where I do not have full time power for charging and it is shaded much of the day, AGM's more than pay for themselves. If you are able to constantly float charge your batteries and do not discharge your batteries more than ~25%, then regular flooded cells will be more economical, but less safe.

As I have said in this post and throughout this thread, I urge everyone to do their own research. Get published testing data from the different battery manufactures and see how they compare with each other according to the BCIS standardized testing methods. Analyze your usage patterns and safety needs, the choose what is best for you.

~Rich
User avatar
seahouse
Admiral
Posts: 2182
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Niagara at Lake Erie, Ontario. 2011 MacM, 60 hp E-Tec
Contact:

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by seahouse »

Hey Rich :D

You wrote...
First off, you are the one that got "personal" first, by calling me out.
Anyone can see by reading the past posts that at no time did I get personal with you, I stuck with the facts. So why would you claim that I did when anyone can confirm for themselves that it’s false?

You also said...
Good on you for correcting it, but please do so in followup post next time.
That is precisely what I did – I even placed it in quotes in the followup – so it’s quite incongruous to suggest that someone do something “next time” that they have already done the first time.
Readers (me included) are not in the habit of reading the entire thread each time we visit the forum.
You might want to consider doing just that, you seemed to have missed, or ignored, the following that I wrote that covered that issue accurately.
As you have correctly pointed out, both AGM and flooded-cell conventional deep cycle batteries use the same lead-acid chemistry, they differ in their construction.
And here’s what you said on the issue...
Both types are lead-acid batteries.
So why are you bringing this up again?
Lifeline batteries have a life span of ~500 cycles, when discharged 80%. Golf cart batteries have a life of ~225 cycles. Cycle life on marine/rv batteries is more difficult to find and not often published.
Precisely – and when they are published they are estimations based on many variables, but even the least reputable brands don’t claim that you get twice the life in deep cycle AGM’s over conventional deep cycle lead acid batteries, that I’ve seen. It was that claim that you made that I disagree(d) with that you seem to have taken exception to. The research you are urging others to do would reveal the true information to you.
then regular flooded cells will be more economical, but less safe

I think Catigale has hit the logic nail on the head with the safety issue in the posts above, if that’s what you’re referring to. The document in your link (and others) also clearly states that AGM batteries do vent explosive gases.

As I stated earlier, I’m not interested in beleaguering the point, but I think each one of us has a responsibility to maintain the integrity of this site by insuring that the information we and others present on these forums is reasonably accurate.

Tranquil Seas – Brian.
:wink:
User avatar
Hamin' X
Site Admin
Posts: 3464
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:02 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Hermiston, OR-----------2001 26X DF-50 Suz---------------(Now Sold)
Contact:

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by Hamin' X »

Sorry Brian, but the following was personal. Anytime you address another member by name, it is personal.
seahouse wrote:
Hey Rich!


Under deep discharge use, flooded cells suffer from sulfation much more severely that AGM cells. Sulfation is a precipitant that forms in the electrolyte and settles to the bottom of the case, shorting out the plates and killing the cell. there is no free electrolyte in an AGM for this precipitant to settle from. Under deep discharge conditions, AGM cells will have more cycles than flooded.

~Rich

Interesting. Haven't seen that before about AGM's. Sulfation happens on the surface of the plates. Any reference for that giving such a marked improvement in lifespan?

Twice as much (it would have to be more than twice, really) is a considerable amount to make such a difference.
Hey Rich - any reference for that? Did you just make that up? :wink:
- Brian :D
Second, you did not go back and remove the false information, until I mentioned it, so when I said what I did about false information, it was valid, as the time stamps prove. As far as the chemistries being the same, the are not. They are both lead-acid type batteries. That is, the both contain lead and acid. The typical flooded cell discharges hydrogen, while the typical AGM recombines hydrogen and oxygen within the cell and will only vent hydrogen under rare circumstances. Due to different chemistry the AGM has a much lower self discharge rate and suffers less from sulfation, as well as not having to worry about antimony poisoning of the electrolyte. There are many other differences, but those that are not interested will not care about anything but price and those that are interested will look it up.

I do not intend to continue the banter with you any further, as it has become about you and I, and any more will detract more from the discussion that it already has.

~Rich
User avatar
seahouse
Admiral
Posts: 2182
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Niagara at Lake Erie, Ontario. 2011 MacM, 60 hp E-Tec
Contact:

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by seahouse »

Hey Rich – :D

Agreed to end it. I think I’m starting to get lead poisoning from this thread! :D

I do want to clarify a related matter because it occurs to me that some might not be aware of it, as I have seen it happen in other threads here, and recently.

Addressing a person by name in the initial salutation does not define a discussion as “personal” in the sense that it is used. It “personalizes” it maybe, even though it is public, but in a difference of opinion it is still customary etiquette to stick with the facts of the topic.

The all-too-frequent sequence of events in many (lets say political) debates leads to a situation where when on of the participants realizes that he cannot “win” (and I use that term lightly, because in a web forum the term win doesn't apply) the “debate” by the platform and presentation of facts, he suddenly turns his attention to attacking and attempting to discrediting the person himself. I have followed the US presidential and other elections, so I know this is well-known to happen.

It is at that point in the thread that I objected, because there is the turning point.

It happens most frequently in politics, but since there is a risk of it having the reverse effect, it is usually done as a last resort when the person has nothing to lose anyway.

In a moderated forum such as ours, when the conversation suddenly turns personal, that’s when those in charge of moderating start to watch for an escalation because it is a violation of the forum rules.

It is a very important distinction to make and be aware of, and I hope I have clarified that issue.

But, of course, in our case, both of us being the gentlemen that we are, there was no need for a third person moderator to intervene, and we resolved our differences without bloodshed or loss of life or limb. (I hope)! 8)

Respectfully – Brian. :wink:
raycarlson
Captain
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:42 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: tucson,az

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by raycarlson »

Unbelieveable!!
User avatar
robbarnes1965
Captain
Posts: 563
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:58 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: (BYC)Montreal, Qc Macgregor 26m-2007 "Miss Coco" - after my daughter, 50hp Honda

Re: Deep Cycle AGM Batteries

Post by robbarnes1965 »

While I didn't like seeing it get a little nasty, I do enjoy that such a passionate debate can go on over batteries! I still managed to learn some things out of it all.

Long live the Mac geeks!!!

Rob
P.s: This was vacation reading for me after blowing a battery my first season with the Mac. :http://www.amazon.ca/Understanding-Boat ... 649&sr=1-2
Post Reply