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Wind Generators are: Too Big, Aesthetically Too Offensive, Too Costly, Too Ineffective for the cost and area required versus the power generated..toss in maintenance as an issue as well and...... etc etc.
On The Cheap.... Any Concentrically wound motor , driven by an outside source becomes a generator.. BTDT. However any and all that I have found/used produced 110 220 or 277 VAC.. Now your adding more cost for more equipment $$$$
Solar seems to be the answer ... its the cost and the location of the panels that is the problem!!!.. I refuse to have my boat look like a jungle gym that was assembled by Fred Sanford and Lemar!!!!

The SS frame (probably a radar mount?) was from a Bertram cruiser....so not designed for our 26X....we cut the middle out of it to narrow it.Its a 60 deg sweptback frame,two 1" uprights which slowly converge,starting 20" apart at the base and 14" apart at the top and looks like it was made for the boat.Will post photos soon...its just that the boat is under a tarp system which doesn't lend it self to photos.I think to have something like this custom made would be extremely costly....I bought it for next to nothing off Ebay,cut the base off,shortened the legs until the right height and had a new base welded on to suit the 26X cockpit combings.Its more the idea I'm putting forward.....it creates shade,makes electricity,has lighting for the cockpit,anchor light,mast crutch,has the bimini mounted off it,the boom attached to it when not in use and in conjunction with the dodger and boomtent creates a sheltered cockpit.

I look forward to your pictures...

bartmac wrote:The SS frame (probably a radar mount?) was from a Bertram cruiser....so not designed for our 26X....we cut the middle out of it to narrow it.Its a 60 deg sweptback frame,two 1" uprights which slowly converge,starting 20" apart at the base and 14" apart at the top and looks like it was made for the boat.Will post photos soon...its just that the boat is under a tarp system which doesn't lend it self to photos.I think to have something like this custom made would be extremely costly....I bought it for next to nothing off Ebay,cut the base off,shortened the legs until the right height and had a new base welded on to suit the 26X cockpit combings.Its more the idea I'm putting forward.....it creates shade,makes electricity,has lighting for the cockpit,anchor light,mast crutch,has the bimini mounted off it,the boom attached to it when not in use and in conjunction with the dodger and boomtent creates a sheltered cockpit.

I installed my trickle chargers today. My Dad and I built a wooden frame and the two panels are screwed to this frame. There are four legs that 'wedge' the frame between the toe rails but hold the frame up above the sliding hatch. I am using bungy cords to hold it down. Seems to be pretty secure.

I will take this off and put in the truck when I get to the marina...and then put it back on the boat at the end of the day. A little bit of a pain but not too bad. I will see if this gets me better battery performance...I always seem to have low charge on my batteries since I do more sailing than motoring normally.



Cheers,
Jim
Sailing on König
Sailing on König YouTube Channel

I'd like to respond to a couple items in this thread and hope no one takes offense.

mastreb wrote:Look to solar as a battery topper. It will _never_ run an A/C unit, a refrigerator, or your electric prop, unless 2X the deck area of a Mac is covered in solar cells. The purpose of solar is to top off your battery while your boat is waiting for you, not to run any constant loads. 20 Watts will do that just fine.

I agree that solar might not run A/C or an electric prop, but it can fulfill over 90% of your electrical needs on the water if you install enough and use it wisely. We have had 180 watts of solar on the boat since last fall and used it for almost a month in the fall (Thanksgiving to almost Christmas) in Florida and again this spring for 7 1/2 weeks (March-May).

We do derive some elect. from the outboard while motoring, but it is only 6 amps max and usually don't see that on the amp meter. We also have a 12 volt gen-set....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... de-13.html

...I built using a Honda 5 HP engine and a GM 63 amp alternator. Our electrical usage is: a 63 quart EdgeStar frig. that draws about 3 1/5 amps when running; a CPAP machine at night for me that that draws 1 1/2 amps or so for 7-8 hours, the 12 volt computer I made that draws 2.8 amps when the long distance WiFi is running (probably used it at least 4 hours a day); also use the computer running SeaClear as a chart plotter while underway all of the time and also the handheld Garmin Map 76 runs off the ships batter while underway; a Cuda 350 GPS/depth/fishfinder while underway; the anchor light every night and we also use a little electricity to recharge some tools and other electronics.

On the fall trip we sat on anchor a lot with one cold front after another going through but did manage to go about 130 miles. The days were short and the sun angles were low and we did have some clouds with the fronts. If I remember right we had to supplement the solar with a couple hours total of running the gen-set on the trip. All of the rest of the electrical needs were supplied by solar with also the outboard a couple days.

We had the same electrical usage for the 7 1/2 week spring trip and there again probably ran the gen-set a total of 2-4 hours total for the trip. This trip was a little over 400 miles down the west coast and over to the keys and then north to south of Miami and we did motor quite a bit, but still we spent a lot of days on anchorage enjoying different locals, usually 2-5 days.

Temps were in the mid to high 80's for the last month of the trip and the frig ran a lot more than in the fall. We usually got it down to 37-38 before the sun went down and turned it off for the night. Then would turn it back on the following morning around 9 am or so. It usually was off for 12-15 hours and during that time would climb to 44-45 deg. Then it ran most of the day for about 8-9 hours straight, so it ran about 30% of the day. We kept it full and really put a load on it as when we had a chance to buy fresh food we filled it and then as that was used we added pop and beer, so it was full most of the time. I've read that at about 95 deg. an air cooled compressor frig is about maxed out as it can't get rid of the heat at 95 and above. We were getting close to those temps inside the boat at the end of the trip. Considering the conditions the frig impressed me and we would buy another.

So all in all solar can supply most if not all of your energy needs on the water.

Divecoz wrote:..... Solar seems to be the answer ... its the cost and the location of the panels that is the problem!!!.. I refuse to have my boat look like a jungle gym that was assembled by Fred Sanford and Lemar!!!!

Yep if you are going to add enough solar for serious cruising and want to be out for more than a couple days the looks of your boat are going to have to change. We have a lot more than solar hanging on the boat and it isn't beautiful anymore....



.....but it sure is functional and we will take that over the alternative for what we want to use the boat for.

I'm changing out one 80 watt panel for a 100 and that will give us 200 watts total. I would sure recommend 80 as a bare minimum if you want to run a frig and over 100 would be a lot better. Your panels are never going to put out max wattage due to the compromised sun angle and then only for part of the day.

We are putting 480 watts on the new boat. We have the panels, I just have to make a mount to take back with us. One thing I would recommend if you are in an area that has pilings or are going to such an area, and that is, don't have anything sticking out further than the rub rails on the boat. I can tell you that from personal experience

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

Sum, that's some pretty excellent data collection there!
Do you think you could easily achieve 100% if you added a small wind generator, without too much additional daily effort?

Ross

One thing I would recommend if you are in an area that has pilings or are going to such an area, and that is, don't have anything sticking out further than the rub rails on the boat.

Hey Sum -

Good advice that is also applicable to the locks of larger canals. Specifically- anything sticking out going into the Welland canal... will not be when you're coming out!

Nice article(s) BTW. Your (and Ruth's) work impresses me every time.

-Brian.

Sumner & Ruth..... You've had some great trips.... Offering up a lot of answers for us all.

Did I Miss a post??? ""We are putting 480 watts on the new boat"" are you selling your mac?

Can you ballpark us on the % of total Actual- Versus - Presumed out put ( collection) , you got during the winter months..?
Dagnabbit.. so much for my assumptions.. My assumptions were based on ....Geeee It SURE SEEMED ....to be sunny a lot of the time I got a great tan and saw a couple towels bleach out nicely..

Erector Sets on board.. I am leaning for now, away from Mast Crutch Mounting.. I .. just personally dont like the looks of that set up...I am for now, am only in the planning/design stages....But I am Leaning more to , two mounted on the Bow Rails ( one each side) with hinges / swivel points, something.. etc etc . and a pair (?) on top of the Bimini.. giving me a potential of somewhere between 180 and 240 watts.. 240 may well be dreaming...as those would ALL have to be 60 watt units and those units are pretty large..?? Maybe adding anther on The Companionway sliding top ?? Careful careful where you step $$$$ That could push me closer to 300 watts..

How loud is that Honda running your alternator.. ?
Are Those " Super Quiet " Honda and Yamaha Gen-sets any quieter? There by, Maybe worth the cost?? $$$

Biggest..... maybe The Only ....disappointment with my Merc 50 HP BF is its......rather low ( IMHO ) amp hour out put..at cruise speeds..and near nothing at idle.. hummmm Not much as I see it that I can do to change that out .. I called a Merc Mechanic and he says the next bigger Alternator will not fit my Merc.

In This case I think pictures must be deceiving.. so I will ask? What size are your panels?? Wattage? Sure looks to be a LOT more than a trickle charger ??

c130king wrote:I installed my trickle chargers today. My Dad and I built a wooden frame and the two panels are screwed to this frame. There are four legs that 'wedge' the frame between the toe rails but hold the frame up above the sliding hatch. I am using bungy cords to hold it down. Seems to be pretty secure.

I will take this off and put in the truck when I get to the marina...and then put it back on the boat at the end of the day. A little bit of a pain but not too bad. I will see if this gets me better battery performance...I always seem to have low charge on my batteries since I do more sailing than motoring normally.



Cheers,
Jim
Sailing on König
Sailing on König YouTube Channel

They are 15 Watts each. I have one going to each battery...just wasn't confident enough in "combining" them for this purpose. It takes about 30 seconds to take off the normal cables and put on the cables coming from the charger controllers.

The web info makes me think this is just a trickle battery charger and will not really provide enough juice to actually provide sufficient power to run anything.

Sunforce 50032 Solar Battery Charger.

Just put them on yesterday so next weekend I will try to get back to the boat and check things out like:

1) Did my frame hold up to the weather...
2) Can I see a noticeable improvement in battery power... (I almost always get a low-voltage warning on my Chartplotter when I raise/lower my motor or if it takes more than 2 seconds for the ignition to catch)
3) How much of a pain will it be to remove the panels solo and put them in my truck and then to rehook up my batteries

Cheers,
Jim

Yep Pictures are this time deceiving. aka The Florida Push....... for fish pictures .
Low Voltage alarm when raising the motor?? Hummm check you batteries?? Mine doesnt do that.. Sad to say but an accurate test may well require removing them and taking them in, to your favorite battery store..

Though I am gathering lots of facts figures and ideas ..I cannot find the time of the initiative( get up and go) to make any alterations till we get moved to Florida...

Hey Sumner, are you buying another boat? Just when you got your Mac fixed up so nicely. I love your mods. We all benefit greatly from your research and knowledge.

My 80watt panel seems to keep the Edgestar fridge powered well. Granted we have 15 hours of bright sunlight each day in the summer. It all comes down to the math. How much are you using vs. how much putting back. And also the fact that standard lead acid batteries charge at an uneven rate. Just because you are pumping 50 amps out into them doesn't mean they can take it.

Crikey wrote:...Do you think you could easily achieve 100% if you added a small wind generator, without too much additional daily effort? Ross

Not really and here is why. First look at the average wind speeds on this link....

http://www.sercc.com/climateinfo/histor ... gwind.html

Notice there there are not that many places that average more than 8 mph and then usually only for a couple months.

Now look at....



...the above chart that plots the wattage for one of the more popular wind generators that is in the $600-$800 range depending on who you buy it from. At 8 knots, more than 8 mph, it is putting out 28 watts and even at 12 kn it is only putting out 62 watts.

Now you might argue that if it is putting out 28 watts 24 hours a day vs. maybe a solar panel only putting out say 80% of it's advertised wattage for about 6 hours a day that it would be equal to about a 100 watt panel. That would probably be true, but now we are counting on the wind staying with the average, but the average is just that, some days it is higher and some days it is lower.

If you had a big battery bank, and low energy needs you might be fine with solar and wind, especially if you over-sized the whole system. But on a boat the size of a Mac that is going to be hard to do. Also remember they recommend that wind generators be installed at 20-30 foot heights and that isn't practical on a boat.

At some point we might add wind on the new boat as it is a lot larger, but in the mean time we added a Honda 2000 generator and a good charger to handle any times the solar we are putting on can't keep up. I could of moved the ....



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... de-13.html

...gen-set from the Mac over, but we want to keep that boat complete so that it is ready for use any time we might want to use it. The gen-set that I made is louder than the Honda, but not so much from the exhaust as I made a second muffler for it. The main noise is vibration from it running. We didn't want a Honda on the Mac as there is no good place to store it and the gen-set is always in place ready to go whenever needed. On the new boat, an Endeavour, there is a convenient place below to store it and hopefully with over twice the solar we won't have to pull it out much. We also got it to use off the boat for some other needs.

If we do add a wind generator it will probably be a commercial one vs. one I try and make. The one I quoted above also comes with a MPPT charger and they cost a couple hundred. Add that to finding a good blade and other items and pretty soon you would be up into the same expense and still wouldn't of had the design time they have put into their product. At home I probably will try and design something for use there as we would like to add solar and wind to the house as the years go on. We probably will tie into the grid if we do that.

Meanwhile I'd try and put as much solar on as possible and then use the outboard or a gen-set to fill in when needed.

Good luck,

Sum

Sum, I swear, you must have run the Library of Alexandria, in a previous life!

Totally cool & a logical approach! It's what works - and if you're prepared to wait for the 'next gen', be prepared to fork out some serious bucks as an early adopter (just like computers). I'll take a slightly different approach with the wind-gen though - if and when I do it: I'd still feel inclined to 'rube goldberg' it if only for the reason that it's too variable a source to bother relying on too heavily and I can probably kluge something from the auto wreckers for 50 bucks. Solar is the future any way you look at it.
I'm thinking though, you could probably use one of those tiny newer gen sets to power a 12v trolling motor in an inflatable a/o feel current to the boat away from the fumes, noise and vibration.....

Otherwise:



Regards .... Ross

Divecoz wrote:.....Did I Miss a post??? ""We are putting 480 watts on the new boat"" are you selling your mac?
==============================
Can you ballpark us on the % of total Actual- Versus - Presumed out put ( collection) , you got during the winter months..?
================================
..But I am Leaning more to , two mounted on the Bow Rails ( one each side) with hinges / swivel points, something.. etc etc . and a pair (?) on top of the Bimini.. giving me a potential of somewhere between 180 and 240 watts.. 240 may well be dreaming...as those would ALL have to be 60 watt units and those units are pretty large..?? Maybe adding anther on The Companionway sliding top ?? Careful careful where you step $$$$ That could push me closer to 300 watts..
==============================
How loud is that Honda running your alternator.. ?
Are Those " Super Quiet " Honda and Yamaha Gen-sets any quieter? There by, Maybe worth the cost?? $$$x

Not selling the Mac as we still hope to use it, but probably not much in the next year or so. Hope to have pictures of the Endeavour we bought up maybe later today.
========================================================
Output last fall will have to be based on some guess work. Between the frig (didn't run as much in the fall as late spring), my CPAP machine and computer usage I'd say we were using about 40-45 amp hours a day. In theory the 180 watts of panels we had should put out about 15 amps per hour. That isn't going to happen since the sun angles are low and the panels plus charge controller are not 100% efficient. I figure during Nov/Dec we might of gotten 5-6 hours of good sun where at least it was high enough in the sky to do some good. Using that figure it looks like we were getting about 7 1/2 amps per hour from the panels. This spring I saw a little over 10 amps a couple times on the amp meter.

One thing to keep in mind also is that I sized all the wiring for a maximum of 3% wiring loss and we are running a very good MPPT charge controller....

http://www.solarblvd.com/Charge-Control ... _info.html

Since we are limited on these boats as to how many panels we can put up I'd sure advise spending the extra for a MPPT controller vs. a PWM one and also use good tinned wire sized for a 3% drop considering the out and back distance.

I'd figure your energy requirements and then size panels to meet that using about 50% of their rated output for 5-6 hours a day in the winter and maybe 9 hours a day during the summer. Also daylight hours are longer in the north during the summer, but the sun angles are not as good as in the south. Not quite sure how that plays out. You could try and come up with a way to tilt the panels that might help some, but I didn't as you would have to be playing with them throughout the day and I didn't think that would happen with us.

I'm not sure about the bow mounting you are considering. Head sail issues? The panels have to be up all day to do any good and that includes while underway.

Up at the bow and the bimini will require wire that needs to be run from different areas of the boat and it will be larger than what you think if you stay in the 3% loss that is recommended and are realistic about the total length of the the wire runs....

http://www.freesunpower.com/wire_calc.php

Good luck and if you are out for any amount of time going solar will be well worth it.

The Honda on our gen-set with the addition of a second muffler I added is about as quiet as the Honda generator we bought recently. The way it is mounted though produces a lot of vibration noise in the cabin while running. I'll work on it. If you were on another boat near us you probably wouldn't know it was running.

Sum

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links