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Craig wrote:I think the Origo is only allowed to burn Ethanol.

The Origo burns what is commonly referred to as "stove fuel". Stove fuel is in turn nothing more than denatured alcohol, usually with some additive which make it smell nice. Denatured alcohol (and stove fuel) is not pure ethanol, it is about 83% ethanol, to which about 16% methanol has been added to make it poisonous so you don't try to drink it. Methly ethyl ketone and ethlyl acetate make up the remaiing 1%.

Denatured alcohol will have the characteristics of the mixture based on the percentages of each component.

Agree with Tripp Gal, burning the Origo (or any other unvented alcohol stove) in an enclosed area puts out obnoxious fumes that will burn both your eyeballs and your nose hairs. That can't be good for your health.

I've got the Wallas stove/heater combo, live in northern California with chilly mornings and that little heater can't be beat! Great investment!

Terry Chiccino wrote:I've got the Wallas stove/heater combo, live in northern California with chilly mornings and that little heater can't be beat! Great investment!

Terry, did you get the Wallas 800 single burner or the Model 125 ceramic top that looks like a 2-burner? Did you install a flush mount or the type that sets on the galley counter? Does the heater lid detach easily for stowage in the summer (warm weather months)?
Thanks, Jeff

I think the Origo is only allowed to burn Ethanol. agree that the safety aspects are more about the fact that you need a substantial open flame to light it rather than a stray spark, plus it can be put out with water, since alcohol mixes well with water. (I removed my club soda joke since denatured ethanol is poisonous).

Ethanol C2H5OH = 24+6+16 = 46 mw

Methanol CH3OH = 12+4+16 = 32 mw

Air is around 28.95 mw (.7811X28+.0093X40+.2096X32)

Both alcohols are heavier than air.

And alcohol is a hydrocarbon . It has H and C Eh?

Got my red face on again - last time I had to turn in my math degree, this time its my chemistry degree - good thing I have two more backups..

Methanol is more dense than air mixture so it will in theory still sink into the bilge. My industrial hygiene wife tells me that it is close enough to the MW of air mixture that a INdustry Safety Person would consider it to mix with air (same with CO btw) rather than it taking a definite direction down under usual circumstances. A boat might be such unusual circumstances. For $500 an hour I can find out.

Just to earn some of my degree back, a 'real' chemist would not call an alcohol a hydrocarbon, that lingo is reserved for the Carbon and Hydrogen only containing molecules....(methane ethane, propane, butane, pentane, plus many more), I used that term to point out burning alcohol is still a potential carbon monoxide (CO) hazard as it contains C and H.

Jeff, I've got the Wallas 800 single burner which seems to heat the cabin quite well on high 40 low 50 degree mornings. There's a built in thermostat in the unit and the heater will cycle on and off as necessary to maintain your temperature setting. My unit sets on the counter top, I guess I would consider it flush mounted although it sets up 1/4" or so above the counter. The heater unit flips up out of the way when you want to use the burner for cooking, heating water etc.. I don't think the blower unit will normally come off the stove it just flips up and stands vertically and is not a problem. I think it would be more of a pain if one had to take it off and stow it.
I know a lot of people use alcohol but I'm afraid of that stuff, when I was in junior high school, one of the other classmates was refilling a bunson burner in science lab and caught his hand on fire, funny thing was that you couldn't see the flame.

know a lot of people use alcohol but I'm afraid of that stuff, when I was in junior high school, one of the other classmates was refilling a bunson burner in science lab and caught his hand on fire, funny thing was that you couldn't see the flame

Thats the oxygen in the alcohol talking. The nice glow you see from any kind of carbon based fire (paper, wood, coal, etc) is the spectroscopy of unburned Carbon that is energised by the fire...(spectroscopists would say 'excited' actually) ..this extra energy is released as light ...ergo the nice glow.

With alcohol, there is oxygen available in the fuel so there is little unburned carbon, so little glow.

Propane and Coleman stoves also burn pretty close to this point - if you look closely at most of these the flame is larger than the part you can see....dont try to discover this with your fingers.


I started out using Coleman stoves on Catigale and liked that I had a single fuel supply...however I changed to Propane to get both stove and grill capabilities. Again, all tanks are stored up in fuel lockers, and the preferred operating location is always up top or on dock.

The alcohol flame in our two burner Origgo stove is easily seen. Perhaps it is the stuff added to the alcohol.

Alcohol is still far safer than any pressurized fuel below. You or a kid can leave the stove accidentally on and unlit and you are not dumping unburned fuel into the bilge as you would with any pressurized fuel.

You can quote chemical facts of the fuel all you want, but you can't light stove alcohol with a spark. It takes an open flame to light the stove and even then it is not an instant explosive start like propane. It takes a bit of patience with the match. It's a much harder fuel to ignite

I would hazard a guess that the mineral spirits used in the Wallas is more explosive than alcohol.

The galley is where we do our cooking. The grill on the back is used occasionally for dinners, but even then the galley stove will be in service cooking the stuff to go with the grilled meat. The galley is the only place we cook for breakfast and lunch. It would be a pain to have to setup and use a portable stove in the cockpit for days on end. Often where we are there is no dock available. My wife would complain if she had to bother with this for cooking, heating water for dishes, etc. Not to mention having it in the cockpit would just plain be in the way. A stove built into the galley is the way to go. We often even use it while under way. That's the whole point of having a decent galley in the boat. Ours is definitely not for show, it get heavy use.

You can quote chemical facts of the fuel all you want, but you can't light stove alcohol with a spark. It takes an open flame to light the stove and even then it is not an instant explosive start like propane. It takes a bit of patience with the match. It's a much harder fuel to ignite

True for the liquid form. Alcohol is definitely a spark explosion hazard in the vapour form. If you dont slosh alcohol around in your bilges, which very simple housekeeping rules would preclude, alcohol is a safer fuel on board, agreed.

PS...My galley config of portable propane with stringent safety rules would not be appropriate for heavy use such as Duane's above...I would probably keep propane but do the whole-up

External locker or transom for LP tank
Solenoid
Sniffer interface to solenoid

route.

Hmmm, that would be a handy flame thrower for those races too....

Moe wrote:
The problem with propane in a boat is that it is heavier than air and sinks into the bilges, where there's no way to vent it, and it can build up to an explosive mixture.

I'm a big fan of propane in the RV world, but not in my boat.

Hi everybody,
If I may elaborate on what Moe said about propane. While I'm certainly no expert, I DID note that most of those experts(?) that I asked about cooking and heating onboard said to steer clear of propane. One gentleman even stated that most of the fires and explosions that He had heard about were caused by propane leaking into the bilge(?)
Now I have to wonder how safe propane is onboard a boat, and if it's so unsafe, why do they continue to sell propane appliances for boats?
-Bruce

Propane is used widely in cruising boats, but they have a big infrastructure of safety equipment built in to mitigate the leakage risk. For example, you have an emergency switch that if you hit it, the solenoid on the tank closes and cuts the flow off.

By the way, Moe's comment on propane settling in the bilge where there is no way to clear it is relevant to Macs of course.

In boats with inboard engines, there is a 'bilge blower fan' that clears anything nasty (propane, gas, etc.) from below.

While you could set this up in a Mac, this is not a place where you engineer by trial and error......imho

Properly installed propane is safe to use. A portable stove sitting on the galley is not properly installed. No portable stove would be considered properly installed. I do wonder if the lip on the galley and the drain in the sink would catch and route spilled gas overboard as needed however. Not a proper setup, but perhaps servicable.

You need a basin with a drain below the appliance and the usual safety shutoff and sniffers. I can't say I've ever seen a properly installed propane stove in a mac.

Obviously using propane in the cockpit or a BBQ out back allow it to drain overboard like water so no explosion hazzard can develop.

Propane is prefered for it ease of use and high heat, not it's safety. Just because people make misakes and boats blow up is no reason to outlaw it's use.

In Boat US's most recent email update they state:

According to the BoatU.S. Marine Insurance claim files, for every boat that sinks underway, four boats sink in their slips. The top four reasons why boat sinks are:

#1 - In 50% of the dockside sinking claims, water found its way into the bilge through leaks at underwater fittings,
#2 - Water falling from the sky, either rain, snow, or sleet, accounted for 32% of the sinking claims,
#3 - Fittings above the waterline in 9% of the sinking claims, and
#4 - Boats that sank after getting caught under a dock or banging against a piling accounted for 8% of the claims.

The best defense against a dockside sinking? Visit your boat. And, at least twice a season, inspect any fittings above or below the waterline that could be letting water into the boat

Just because most boats that sink do so at the dock is no reason to outlaw slips.

It is however yet another good reason to own a mac which can be stored on it's trailer at home.

I remember being on a 35' fishing boat in Alaska in the mid 1970's in December. The cabin had a cast iron stove vented through the roof, burning spruce logs. I remember, because I never asked the that burning question: "What happens in 20' seas, when hot coals could be flying out on to the deck?" I was a newbie from the Colorado mountains, and had no wish to appear ignorant, and uncool. The message I got was that the world is a dangerous place, and There is always some risk if you want somewhat comfortable adventures. The most important thing was to wake up in time to catch the early morning tide, no matter how bad your hangover was.
I have a MR. HEATER hanging from a couple of screws behind the hatch ladder. Additionally I have a sheet metal reflector to prevent the fibreglass directly above from melting. This heater is advertised as safe with an auto shut-off for low oxygen. And just in case I've added a CO2 alarm on the ceiling. I've not slept with it , but for working on the boat this winter, it's been just great. if it used larger cannisters of propane i wouldn't use it, but I can always light a match in the bilge to clear out residual propane. http://www.mrheater.com/

I have a MR. HEATER hanging from a couple of screws behind the hatch ladder. Additionally I have a sheet metal reflector to prevent the fibreglass directly above from melting. This heater is advertised as safe with an auto shut-off for low oxygen. And just in case I've added a CO2 alarm on the ceiling. I've not slept with it , but for working on the boat this winter, it's been just great. if it used larger cannisters of propane i wouldn't use it, but I can always light a match in the bilge to clear out residual propane

Yikes

As the 'propane proponent' on this thread I have to say I wouldnt do this. Its one thing to use a propane appliance for 10 minutes where you watch it the whole time..I would not use a heater which most of the time I am not watching...

I agree with Duane that my portable stove is not a safe stove install. It is a temporary solution which meets light duty needs. Again, the first choice is to use it up top or on dock/shore. I never use it underway.

Little buddy portable at Lowes for

Mr. Heater 4,000 / 9,000 Btu Portable Indoor Heater $49.99
Item Number 122001, Model # F273415
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