Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

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DaveB
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by DaveB »

Bob,
I can live with 14.5 inch wide but now you opened a new door to E-Tec 75 that you say is not much wider. If it's less than 17 inches I would be interested.
I may just go with the Etec 60 as it will probably do better than my Honda BF50. All I want is 2-3 knots more to get the boat on plane the way it should be. This means 16 knots unbalasted in a fully loaded (700 lbs more than stock) .
They say for every 100 lbs you load, it will require 1 hp more to push it, in a MacX I belive it's every 50 lbs to 1 hp. to get on full rpms and speed.
Dave
bscott wrote:Dave, the E-tec 60 power head is not a true rectangle and is 14.5" wide. The boarding ladder on my :macx: sits mid-way between the port rudder and the engine. Hope this helps. The E-tec 75 is not much wider than the 60 but I don't have the measurements.

Bob
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vkmaynard
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by vkmaynard »

DaveB wrote:Bob,
I may just go with the Etec 60 as it will probably do better than my Honda BF50. All I want is 2-3 knots more to get the boat on plane the way it should be. This means 16 knots unbalasted in a fully loaded (700 lbs more than stock) .
At 16 knots the X is NOT on a "plane". The boat still plows thru the water at that speed, period. Have you been on an X above 21 MPH? If you have you will notice the bow drops at or above that speed when it gets over its' bow wake and picks up speed as the drag becomes less, like all other power boats.

"Term: plane (v)
Definition: To power a boat fast enough for the bow to lift clear of the water allowing the vessel to attain significantly increased speeds. In practice the bow pitches up as the boat begins to increase speed, then settles down again just clear of the water as the vessel reaches higher speeds, skipping over the water like a flat stone."

http://www.seatalk.info/cgi-bin/nautica ... cords&nh=4

Victor
Last edited by vkmaynard on Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by Catigale »

3)I will be buying my first replacement gallon of XD-100 oil after 3 years of sailing--current cost $45.00. I don't know the cost of annual oil changes/time for a 4s but I bet its more than $45.00.
Oil change 4s about 15 USD in materials, so a wash if you do the job yourself, 2 stroke half cost if you are paying labour costs.
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by bscott »

Dave,

The E-tec 75/90 is the same width as the 60 but is 4.5" taller and only 80# heavier. I don't know if the captain's seat will contact the top of the engine in a full tilt.

Sounds like a fun project 8)

Bob
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by vkmaynard »

Here is a video of "Knot Shore" 26X on plane. The boat climbed over its' bow wake then settled down (imagine a teeter-totter where the pivot point moves back). I'll see if I can find video/pictures of his Honda 50 power runs where the boat plows thru the water and the bow wake never moves back far enough for the bow to drop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBPSK5m6WfE

Victor
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by bscott »

Dave,
Go to BRP-Parts, sign in then go to Evinrude, age, model, scroll mid way down the parts list to "profile drawing" and you'll get the dimensions--the tilted height is 28".

I measured the width to be 14.5" but the dimension sheet sez 15.25"

I'd be curious as to the total cost, including labor, to repower your :macx: to 75. :?: 90HP looks scary fast :evil:

BTW, I get most of my info from http://www.ETECOWNERSGROUP.com

Bob
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by DaveB »

Victor, That Video is a good example why to use shims on the motor mount. The Stearn is digging in and bow to high.
My Honda BF50 was notched at transom to allow the bracket to be flush with transom. This allows 3/8 inch, almost the same as using shims.
I have a waterline approx. 3 ft. aft when on plane at 14 knots. That's max. I can do but with another 20 hp it would get to 16 knots and on plane with only 2 ft of bow waterline showing.
I am still working on re-power and thanks for the Video. I have seen other video's on both the Mac.X and M with plus 90 hp.
Dave
vkmaynard wrote:Here is a video of "Knot Shore" 26X on plane. The boat climbed over its' bow wake then settled down (imagine a teeter-totter where the pivot point moves back). I'll see if I can find video/pictures of his Honda 50 power runs where the boat plows thru the water and the bow wake never moves back far enough for the bow to drop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBPSK5m6WfE

Victor
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DaveB
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by DaveB »

Bob, thanks for measurements. The tilt angle doesn't bother me as I plan on remodifying the seat to a half round so I can see better and also more comfort in heeling. All I am looking for is for a engine that can cruise 15 knots at approx. 3/4 rpm's and that usually will only be at one hr time.
I am also looking at the New Yamaha 70.
I have a new Suzuki 2.5 hp that has only 7 hrs on it but stored past 7 mo. in a aircondition place and carbarator was already showing signs of varnish and flushed with new gas the engine only runs on full choke.
This ethonol gas is crap!
Dave
bscott wrote:Dave,
Go to BRP-Parts, sign in then go to Evinrude, age, model, scroll mid way down the parts list to "profile drawing" and you'll get the dimensions--the tilted height is 28".

I measured the width to be 14.5" but the dimension sheet sez 15.25"

I'd be curious as to the total cost, including labor, to repower your :macx: to 75. :?: 90HP looks scary fast :evil:

BTW, I get most of my info from http://www.ETECOWNERSGROUP.com

Bob
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by Octaman »

Catigale
think you will find in a modern, direct inject 2 stroke the cost for oil consumed is less than a four stroke oil change...especially if you consider changing the oil 4 times in one season because of dunking your engine....

Ha! Ha! You made me laugh. Well, I don’t plan dunking my engine (smile) and it has never happened so far (smile), and I hope it never does. But, seriously, based on 100 hours of operation which is when I need to make an oil change on my 4-stroke, when I asked around in my marina, the two stroke guys gave me figures of consumption that surprised me. Admittedly, it depends on how you use your motor (if you are using the higher rpm range most of the time or the lower range) and of course the price of 2-stroke oil in your area vs the price of 4-stroke oil. I do not have the exact figures at hand but I recall that my calculations at the time had presented a number not at all insignificant, to be taken into consideration when assessing the overall fuel consumption of a 2-stroke. With pricing of oil in your part of the world and how you use your motor I can see how this picture could be very different in your case. Thank you for your input.

-------

Bob

1. I agree with you totally on this point but I have solved this problem by having detachable steering on my motor. When I sail the motor stays centrally locked in the centre position and the rudder steering operates independently. In this position the motor swings up and down (in and out of the water) so that if while under sail, in an emergency, I need to use the engine it can be deployed very fast. When motoring in this mode, steering comes from the rudders only, which is fine on open water. When I come back into the marina I reconnect the motor to the steering for enhanced maneuverability.

2. You know Bob, I can’t really agree with you on this point, because if you are maneuvering in a marina you will be doing so at very low speeds in displacement mode (the hole shot performance relates to transitioning from displacement mode to planning mode). So slamming into reverse to avoid a collision at slow speed will produce a very rapid result regardless of your engine type or size in my opinion. Indubitably one needs to know and feel the ability and limitations of one’s engine and use it appropriately.

3. I think I’ve covered that with my response to Catigale.

4. If you had a higher gear ratio with a given 2-stroke you would, in theory, be able to swing a larger and/or higher pitched propeller that would most probably give higher speeds. But the lack of engine volume would probably allow that to work only on very light planing boats. This is how I see it but I may be wrong. I also think the gain in drag, if any, would be insignificant and should not be a determining factor in engine choice for our ‘slow’ speed Macs.

5. Do you have wedges on your E-tec 60? And at what angle?

In my discussions, when I refer to 2-strokes, I think only of the modern fuel injected motors.
You are right about wondering how reliable the new generation 4s will be – what with DOHCs and so many valves, it does set you thinking . . . .! However, there doesn’t seem to be anything negative in the air so far.
Thank you for your input Bob.

Octaman
8)
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by Catigale »

Octaman.....Duane Dunn had a nice analysis on 2s vs 4s running costs - my guess above was based on a single oil change for the 4s, which is my typical use. If you are using the boat every weekend in a sunny climate you could easily end up running an oil change every 3 months. Im sure a 2s wins out then, on cost.
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by vkmaynard »

DaveB wrote:Victor, That Video is a good example why to use shims on the motor mount. The Stearn is digging in and bow to high.
My Honda BF50 was notched at transom to allow the bracket to be flush with transom. This allows 3/8 inch, almost the same as using shims.
I have a waterline approx. 3 ft. aft when on plane at 14 knots. That's max. I can do but with another 20 hp it would get to 16 knots and on plane with only 2 ft of bow waterline showing.
I am still working on re-power and thanks for the Video. I have seen other video's on both the Mac.X and M with plus 90 hp.
Dave
That is what the X looks like on a real "plane" trimmed properly. It is not too high in the bow. That boat has transom wedges and the cavitaion plate is about even with the bottom, same as ours. It is unlikely 60 Hp will put the X on a "plane" even with the boat is totally striped with one battery, no mast. See definition of "plane" above. If what you are defining is a plane then our boat was on on a plane at 5 MPH with our Honda 50 because the bow lifted out of the water compared to sitting still.

Victor
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by DaveB »

Victor, When I say on plane that is when the boat starts to go over 11 knots and bow starts to drop and at 14.5 knots the bow is at a point were I can see over it while sitting down. I can feel the the boat comeing on plane just about 13 knots.
I am Bow heavy with twin batteries under Vberth and most gear is forward. Sitting at dock my waterline with no one aboard is 2 inches lower at Bow than stearn. This levels out when 2 persons in cockpit.
I wouldn't know about any more power after 15.5 knots and effects of the boat (when I bought boat top speed was 15.5 knots empty).

Dave
vkmaynard wrote:That is what the X looks like on a real "plane" trimmed properly. It is not too high in the bow. That boat has transom wedges and the cavitaion plate is about even with the bottom, same as ours. It is unlikely 60 Hp will put the X on a "plane" even with the boat is totally striped with one battery, no mast. See definition of "plane" above. If what you are defining is a plane then our boat was on on a plane at 5 MPH with our Honda 50 because the bow lifted out of the water compared to sitting still.

Victor
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by Currie »

FWIW - my $.02 -

I can understand why it's hard to get the bow down with an extra 180 lbs (DF90 vs DF50) on the transom. No doubt a wedge helps lifts the stern, but without the added weight the wedge isn't necessary. My ideal outboard trim with my DF50 is slightly up-and-out, not wedged under. It planes about 16MPH (13.9 knots) WOT (with ballast) - although as Victor points out, it's not an efficient or ideal plane, but it's certainly not in displacement mode. I would also say that, at that speed, it's out of transition and on a plane.

~Bob
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by DaveB »

Bob, 13.9 knots with ballast in on a Mac.M with 50 hp is Super great. With my BF50 Honda 4 blade I doubt I could get out of the hole at 9-10 knots wide open with Full Ballast on my Mac.X.(I tried many props)
14 Knots in very calm water is my Max speed with no ballast and fully loaded for a 5 day cruise.
Currie wrote:FWIW - my $.02 -

I can understand why it's hard to get the bow down with an extra 180 lbs (DF90 vs DF50) on the transom. No doubt a wedge helps lifts the stern, but without the added weight the wedge isn't necessary. My ideal outboard trim with my DF50 is slightly up-and-out, not wedged under. It planes about 16MPH (13.9 knots) WOT (with ballast) - although as Victor points out, it's not an efficient or ideal plane, but it's certainly not in displacement mode. I would also say that, at that speed, it's out of transition and on a plane.

~Bob
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Re: Re-powering a MacM from 70 HP up

Post by Octaman »

Decision made

Outboard ordered.

1950 cc
4-stroke
100 hp
Suzuki


Thanks to all for your input.
Will revert when I have the engine and my first results. 8)

Happy New Year to all

Octaman :macm:
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