MacGregorSailors.com

Arghhh - that was extremely punny!

Only a little bit.

~Rich

My wife and I were able to connect to the internet from 5 miles away from shore. We both have BlackBerrys that we teather to our laptops. With a cellular booster, we should be able to increase our range to at least 20 miles. Some people have even claimed a range of 40 miles.

Hi again too. I guess I just can't resist.

From our experience, in sailing, water as much as air is going to effect ALL equipment on the boat. Certainly if you are sitting at a marina, and simply want to connect to the marina's hotspot, any $40 external WiFi card is probably the best solution, and certainly the cheapest. If a Marina hotspot was designed properly, you shouldn't need anything more than your internal laptop WiFi card anyway, certainly not any of the long-range solutions discussed on this thread.

We built our product to stand up to the harsh marine environment, just like lots of other high-end marine electronic manufacturers. If their products were not waterproof, I know I would not purchase it for my boat (imagine a $2000 Raymarine chart plotter that was not waterproof, ouch).

There is no question, that in certain, very specific situations, a mast head installation may help. However, in the vast majority of cases, it wont be needed. We have lots of customers, and not one has had a need or desire to mount the unit on their mast to have favorable results.

About the "comparison" that was asked for, I too suggest reading Practical Sailor. Lots in there about marine grade stuff and durability. Its a good read for all. I wont add any quotes promoting our product. You can visit our website if you would like to read them.

Hope everyone had a great day!

Mark

There are many things on a boat that are not waterproof - few laptops are. Your boat's engine isn't either. What we do is use things for a purpose that is reasonable. IP65 is reasonable. The 6 represents "Totally protected against dust", and the 5 represents "Water projected by a nozzle against enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects". The vendors of products that are based on Bullets (with thousands of outside installations worldwide) could stick them inside a waterproof box if it was necessary, but we just don't see water as being the biggest concern, especially at the top of a mast. Salty air is the greater villain. Wiring on a boat takes a severe hit and I don't think most ever have gotten wet. Bullets require a Cat5 cable to carry both data and power just like USB cables. Cat5 however comes in exterior waterproof grade, again allowing for permanent installation.

Close in:
In a marina, sitting at the nav station, with an adapter card, you're usually at the waterline, often below dock level, with lots of metal boats and masts all around. These all conspire to absorb and reflect Wi-Fi signals. Distances may be relatively short, but a connection just can't be had. Everybody aggrees that getting the antenna into a line-of-site is needed. That means height. Now there is a practical limit. I'd imagine sticking it 100s of feet up may be overkill, but the typical marina installation will be on a tower or roof making it often 30-50' up. Putting it at the top of a mast (30-50') usually puts it on the same level as the hotspot, above most obstructions (masts) for a cleaner, clearer signal. Spreader is better than top of bimini/arch which is better than stern rail. I am open to any logical arguments against any of this.

Long Range:
By putting an antenna higher, range will be increased. Curvature of earth, fresnel zone, etc. Can't see any arguments with that either. If someone is looking for max range, higher is simply better again.

Mike

mlahrkamp wrote:...I don't think most ever have gotten wet....

Are you saying that something at the top of a mast never gets wet? Although it never rains in Southern California (seems I've often heard that kind of talk before), it *does* tend to rain everywhere else once in a while... sometimes rather horrendously.... sideways, even. How does it never get wet?

Hi,

No... it certainly does get wet up there. The issue was IP65 being presented as inadequate. IP65 must tolerate nozzle spray from all directions with no ill effects. IP65 will not stand up to extended dunking like IP67. A rail mounted unit would be subjected to potentially more water contact than a mast mounted unit, but I question the need for an IP67 rating as being required.

The '...I don't think most ever have gotten wet....' was referring to wiring in conduits below deck that have corroded. You know, primarily on the ground or return wire, the copper becomes black and brittle and it usually starts at a poorly done connection and advances for many feet inside the insulation of the wire.

While on the topic of corrosion: Using an IP67 rated case not only seals out the environment, it seals it in as well. The warm humid air let in during daytime installation when cooled in the evening will condense on the inside (given a sufficient temperature drop of course) and has nowhere to go. This may not be much of a probem in the Caribbean but it is in the northern climates. Add salt air to the mix and you can get accelerated deterioration. I would recommend a simple solution: use a packet or two of desiccant. That's why it's included in the box of most electronic products one buys.

Cheers,
Mike

There are many things on a boat that are not waterproof - few laptops are. Your boat's engine isn't either. What we do is use things for a purpose that is reasonable.

A device that is designed to be permanently outside (like a chart plotter, navigation instruments, compass, antenna's, etc), should certainly be waterproof, in my opinion anyway, and certainly on my boat. I have enough things to worry about! My laptop is not a purpose built marine electronic, nor was my engine built be installed outside.

While on the topic of corrosion: Using an IP67 rated case not only seals out the environment, it seals it in as well.

I am more than happy to take a photo of the inside of any Wirie that has been installed in the outdoors for over a year. We use no grease or magic, and the wiring and connectors look exactly the same as the day we manufactured the unit. That's why we do what we do, and why IP67 is actually important. I guess Raymarine, Simrad, and Furuno have it all wrong too.

If someone is looking for max range, higher is simply better again.

Our customers are looking to get online, they don't really care if the access point is 1 mile or 10 miles away. If max range is the only important thing, a directional antenna is a better option anyway.

In a marina, sitting at the nav station, with an adapter card, you're usually at the waterline, often below dock level, with lots of metal boats and masts all around. These all conspire to absorb and reflect Wi-Fi signals.

All the marina's I have stayed at seem to know what they are doing then, as I can connect with my laptop alone. Good marina installs wont consist of a single tower. They will provide access points at various locations throughout the marina to provide the best coverage for all their customers. It is after all in their best interest to get their customers online, since its a service they are offering to them.


Regards too,
Mark

P.S. I sure hope someone besides Mike and I are reading this .

P.S. I sure hope someone besides Mike and I are reading this .

Mark, you can rest easy, this post is being read, here are the stats. - Long Distance WiFi...

Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:42 pm 37 Replies 821 Views Last post by kiltym
Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:15 pm Rob

kiltym wrote:P.S. I sure hope someone besides Mike and I are reading this .

I'm enjoying the discussions between the leaders of two manufacturers. Very interesting stuff.


--Russ

How to build a directional antenna out of some large cans and aluminum tape:
http://www.sailsarana.com/projects.htm#ANT

verena wrote:How to build a directional antenna out of some large cans and aluminum tape:
http://www.sailsarana.com/projects.htm#ANT

Yea.. I built a pringles cantenna years ago to "borrow" WiFi while visiting my dad who was on dial up.

They work good, but not on a moving boat and are clumsy.

--Russ

Hello again,

kiltym wrote:A device that is designed to be permanently outside (like a chart plotter, navigation instruments, compass, antenna's, etc), should certainly be waterproof, in my opinion anyway, and certainly on my boat.

Regarding waterproof: Raymarine is only rated as "Fascia waterproof to IPX6 standards when console mounted." No statement regarding remainder of enclosure, only the front display.

Ratings IPX5 and IPX6: Tests for the ratings IPX5 and IPX6 address the possibility of water ingress from a jetting stream. They are conducted using a jet nozzle kit. To test for compliance with IPX5, the sample is subjected to water jetting from a nozzle with a 6.3-mm-diameter opening at a flow rate of 12.5 L/min. Each surface of the enclosure is to be tested for 1 minute at a distance from the jet nozzle of 2.5–3.0 m. For IPX6 testing, the sample is subjected to water jetting from a nozzle with a 12.5-mm-diameter opening at a flow rate of 100 L/min. Again, each surface of the enclosure is to be tested for 1 minute at a distance from the nozzle of 2.5–3.0 m.

kiltym wrote:I am more than happy to take a photo of the inside of any Wirie that has been installed in the outdoors for over a year. We use no grease or magic, and the wiring and connectors look exactly the same as the day we manufactured the unit. That's why we do what we do, and why IP67 is actually important. I guess Raymarine, Simrad, and Furuno have it all wrong too.

I indicated that condensation requires a temperature change, something that does not really happen in the Caribbean. Nevertheless, any sealed volume that contains moist warm air and then cools to below the saturation level of the air, will form condensation. If it is salt air, expect more issues. One minimizes this effect by reducing the volume of the space so that minimum opportunity exists, uses a desiccant or provides ventilation (negating the sealed environment).

kiltym wrote:Our customers are looking to get online

This was in response to antenna height. Not sure how this is a counterpoint, therefore I'll take it as agreement regarding the height aspects and issues.

kiltym wrote:All the marina's I have stayed at seem to know what they are doing then, as I can connect with my laptop alone.

A typical marina setup (our company also installs marina Wi-Fi systems and are adding high rise buildings such as hotels, etc) uses high power antennas (typically outputing 4W EIRP). These antennas are installed high and point down onto the boats from above to give as clear a line of sight as possible to our users. Your laptops put out about 35-50mW. An adapter card that you get at a electronics box store puts out about 100mW. So you can hear the hotsot but it can't hear you back. Add to this that the antenna built into most laptops is built into the LCD cover. When you use it, it's usually tilted back at some angle thus not being perpendiclar to the hotspot. The hotspot is putting out the maximum power allowed by law (FCC Part 15.247), but with you sitting close to the waterline, trying to send your signal though a forest of metal with an antenna that's not usually aligned, you get a poorer connection. To get around this inequality as much as possible, we often install a generous number of access points around the property, but that adds considerably to cost and maintenance.

Here are some other things that everyone can do with their laptop if you experience a weak signal:
1) Rotate it horizontally through 90 degrees. You will find a favoured position.
2) Tilt the laptop to find the best perpendicular alignment. You will find a favoured position.
3) Check in your adapter's properties to ensure that battery mode does not automatically reduce the power to your built-in adapter (to conserve battery life). Turn this off.
4) Take it higher - out from the cabin below to up on deck. You will notice an increase in signal.

As long as we're at it, I may as well mention antennas. Let's start by considering a bare light bulb with light going in all directions. Now if we take the light going out the top and bottom (mostly wasted) and reflect it sideways, we have more light in the horizontal. Continue to add refectors until the light is flat as a pancake. It will radiate a greater distance in that plane, but everything above and below will be in darkness. Say that a distant object is being illuminated. The slightest motion will cause the object to no longer be illuminated (think aligned). The exact same principle applies to antenna gain. For a boat, you should always use an omni-directional, not a directional like a can-tenna. A boat just is not stable enough. For an omni, the higher the gain, the greater the potential range. Practicality limits the usable gain to about 8-9dBi. Once you get to higher gains than this, expect to start having connectivity issues. We recommend a 6dBi for a number of reasons: 1) its signal radiation pattern is much better in a marina. 99+% of the time, you will be less than a mile from the access point. Higher gain antennas will have a problem connecting with the access point only 50' away (because their beam is to flat and is above or below the access point), but will try to connect to one on another dock or other side of the marina, through all the obstacles in between. 2) FCC regulations require a reduction in output power from 1000mW (which our products put out) once antenna gain exceeds 6dBi. This has the effect of negating any advantage that a higher gain antenna offers. 3) Smaller size (12" as compared to 18" for 8-9dBi or 60+" for 12+dBi) - this means greater portability and less opportunity for lines and such to snag on when installed. Who wants to carry around a big 'portable' antenna?

Finally, I believe these forums should be used to correct facts, and promote techniques and knowledge. Products that perform well or poorly should be discussed. I would be happy to share in greater depth if still warranted. When counterpoints are not being offered or not being supported by facts, or opinion is offered as fact, the thread begins to loose validity.

Sorry for the long post.

Cheers,
Mike

I couldn't agree with you more! I think its time to give the forum back to the forum members and us commercial vendors should stay out of all of them.

Just a few quick corrections as there are some things implied that I want to chime in on:

I indicated that condensation requires a temperature change, something that does not really happen in the Caribbean.

We have units in use all over the world, even in Toronto! We have never had any issues with condensation in any of our units, nor will we. Our product was born down here in the Caribbean, but has been happy to migrate to places like Norway and Sweden too.

This was in response to antenna height. Not sure how this is a counterpoint, therefore I'll take it as agreement regarding the height aspects and issues.

I will refer back to my previous post, height can be the most important aspect of an install in very specific situations, but in most situations, additional height wont make any difference. Also, as you stated as well, most of the time people are within 1 mile of the access point, in which case the height at the top of your mast will definitely not be needed. Even up to 5 miles or so we have had customers connect, again, all mounted at about 6 ft off the deck of the boat.

The one advantage of a masthead mount that I do offer up is the clear air around the antenna. However, this can be obtained at lower levels on a boat as well. And its an important part of ANY installation of any device. To fully realize the benefit of an omni-directional antenna (I agree, the only thing for a boat), the antenna needs to be free of very close obstructions (like your mast ).

I will say again though, if your primary objective is to simply get online at the marina, go buy an Alfa unit with the 5dBi antenna. It will work just fine, and save you lots of money to spend on other boat parts, and installation headache. If your out cruising, look to one of the many long-range products on the market. Performance wise they will all perform comparably, so the decision will comes down to other features, like durability, ease of use, install-ability, etc, and suited to your particular needs.

Good luck in everyone's decisions, and enjoy the WWW on whichever product you choose, that's the important part.

Bye,
Mark