Stepping the mast on the water

[Max]

Thanks Frank,
What's Bill's web site address?
Thought of making my own, but would prefer to trust a professional when it comes to making the ends secure...or is it easier than I think?
Max

[Frank C]

Max,
Go to the memberlist page, sort by Username, look for Bill at Boats 4 Sail, and send him email or private message (PM). I think I could make one myself, but I don't think I'd do so. When I bought one from a local rigger, cost was about $50 with machine swaged fittings. (BTW, double hand-crimped fittings are decried by purists, but one advantage they have over machine swaged fittings - they're easy to examine.)

You might even check with a rigger in the UK. If their price is reasonable, just take them the old forestay and ask for a new one of the same length.

[Max]

Thanks again, Frank.
Got in touch with a rigger 40 miles away - no problems. I'll just take the roller furling system and the forestay and they'll make one up for about $3.60 a metre. Sounds good to me!
Max

[Frank C]

If you mean US$, then that's less than here. While you're at it, my rigger upsized to 5/32" wire, from the factory's 1/8" wire size. I'd guess your choices over there are wire @ 3mm versus 4mm.

Also, if you're frequently in 20+ knots of wind (most certainly in the Solent?) you can consider having the new stay shortened a tad to reduce the factory's standard mast rake. I had mine shortened by 100mm(not cm), you could choose anything from 50 to 125mm (not cm) shorter if you're certain that the factory-spec wire is your starting point. Cheers!


OOPS! Yes, I meant to say millimeters, not cm. Thanks Mark!

[Chip Hindes]

I've mentioned this before, but a long time ago and it bears repeating.

Upsizing forestay wire rope or any other of the standing rigging is not necessarily the no brainer it might appear.

5/32" wire has 56% higher area than 1/8" wire. That makes it not only 56% stronger, but also 56% stiffer, and 56% less shock absorbing. So even if it doesn't get overloaded, in normal use it will still transmit substantially higher loads to all the other standing rigging components.

As far as I've heard, forestay failures (excepting unscrewed turnbuckles, in which case diameter is irrelevant) aren't common. A couple years ago there were several reports on this board of the stemhead fitting being pulled right through the deck. That's an indication that the forestay isn't the weakest link in the system anyway, and a stiffer forestay would certainly exacerbate this tendency.

I didn't design the standing rigging in the first place, so I can't say upsizing is definitely a mistake. But it might be. Why mess with success?

[Frank C]

.... Upsizing forestay wire rope or any other of the standing rigging is not necessarily the no brainer it might appear.
.... 5/32" wire has 56% higher area than 1/8" wire. That makes it not only 56% stronger, but also 56% stiffer, and 56% less shock absorbing.
.... several reports on this board of the stemhead fitting being pulled right through the deck. That's an indication that the forestay isn't the weakest link in the system anyway, and a stiffer forestay would certainly exacerbate this tendency.

Absolutely true - the standing rig is a tuned system addressing the hull structure and intended wind-loads. Actually, I've posted the same warning, not from training or experience, but simply from reading on Brion Toss' Rigging website. Upsizing the standard 5/32" shrouds is particularly risky, where static tensions lever upwards on the hull sides. The problem is mainly due to the concomitant increase in minimum wire tensions (required simply to stretch the wire). I doubt the Mac's hull, absent any crossing bulkheads, is appropriate to handle those increased minimums (from the factory's 5/32" to 3/16").

The fore-tang's leverage is borne by the hull's bow-shape and structure, where the hull's stiffness is greatest. The foredeck weakness (at least those that I've read of and reported here), is due to the tang's knife-edge slicing aft through the deck-sandwich, pulled by aft-loads including the shrouds. The several instances I've read about happened under bare poles during extreme weather, ~60 knot winds. True enough, either a 3 or 4 mm forestay wire is ample to perform this cutting. I have added a 1/4" aluminum backing plate under the foredeck, crossing from cleat to cleat, to prevent the fore-tang's moving aft. (Another tactic is to bolt the fore-tang to the side of a bow roller).

So, upsizing the factory's 3mm forestay seems ill-advised? ... I thought so. However, my local yacht rigger suggested it. He said that a 4 mm forestay was a better choice to stiffen the Genoa's luff under higher wind speeds, and without a negative impact on the hull or shrouds. I took his advice. YMMV.

[Jeff S]

I just posted my forestay "mod" (fix is a better description) on the Mods page. My 1/8" wire looked like it was about ready to fail. Frequent inspection is required regardless- that includes all the connections for the rigging. Anyway... Max I thought I'd do it myself but the cost savings is not worth it- I ended up cutting off the sleeves I put on and going with the professionals swaging it on for me. (Fortunately for me it only cost a 12 pack). I had a problem with the copper sleeves on the 5/32" line binding in the cap on the furler. I changed to a Marine Eye that is machine swaged to prevent this from happening. The other benefit is that the wire is not bent around a thimble causing added stress.

[Chip Hindes]

So, upsizing the factory's 3mm forestay seems ill-advised? ... I thought so. However, my local yacht rigger suggested it. He said that a 4 mm forestay was a better choice to stiffen the Genoa's luff under higher wind speeds, and without a negative impact on the hull or shrouds.

Riggers know rigging, but stating "without a negative impact on the hull or shrouds"? Unless he designed the boat, I would politely tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about.

There's absolutely no question there's a negative impact on the rest of the standing rigging and the hull. It's simple physics. The amount of the effect though, is quite complicated and, when all is said and done, may not amount to a hill of beans. But why take the chance; why "fix" what ain't broken?

[Jeff S]

There's absolutely no question there's a negative impact on the rest of the standing rigging and the hull. It's simple physics. The amount of the effect though, is quite complicated and, when all is said and done, may not amount to a hill of beans. But why take the chance; why "fix" what ain't broken?

I agree with you Chip except that my 1/8" factory forestay was broken and to me it looked like it had trouble taking both the load and the trailering with a furler which is why I went to 5/32".




Jeff S

[Chip Hindes]

How old is your boat? I've got over 8000 miles trailering my '01 X, with the furler, and no evidence of what's in your picture. My furler is bungeed to the mast in 5 places; I can't imagine that trailering a properly secured furler puts more load on the forestay than sailing. It reminds me of the old stand up joke:

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this."

"Don't do that. That'll be $100, pay at the desk on your way out."

[Idle Time]

Get the mast in position and bolted down while on the trailer. It's much easier walking it into place....but we have done it on the water. We used to sail on a lake with 2 bridges and got real handy at lowering the mast to get under and then raising it. We usually tried to time it so there wernt any powerboats nearby as their wake can cause the mast to sway and bang alot on its way up. Definately use the baby stays. In fact, we never remove ours. We carry lots of spare ringdings.

[Jeff S]

How old is your boat? I've got over 8000 miles trailering my '01 X, with the furler, and no evidence of what's in your picture. My furler is bungeed to the mast in 5 places; I can't imagine that trailering a properly secured furler puts more load on the forestay than sailing. It reminds me of the old stand up joke:

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this."

"Don't do that. That'll be $100, pay at the desk on your way out."

I bought it in March this year. The boat is a 2000 26X. I noticed it after the first time I sailed it when I knew how to look up under the furling drum; I have to assume the damage was done prior to the first time I trailersailed the boat. I keep the boat in the water right now. In the several times I have trailered I have the furler strapped tightly to the mast in 7 places with velcro ties and a line. I don't know how it was done previously when the damage to the forestay occured. Since I haven't owned a Mac previous I supposed it was the weak line, hence the larger and stronger forestay. I have since decided it was mishandled, although uncharacteristic of how the PO's treated the rest of the boat. It seems like Max had a similar problem as well with the stock forestay. It is weak enough that with the furler on it requires some special attention to keep it in good shape, which I have given in the 5 months I have owned the boat. I do like the bungee idea- right now I have 7 heavy duty velcro straps that hold the furler nicely, but they are starting to wear out and bungees are cheaper.

Jeff S

[mgg4]

... I had mine shortened by 100cm...

Ummm. That would mean you shortened your forestay by a meter, or about 39 inches. Somehow that seems to be a bit excessive to me. Do you perhaps mean you shortened it by 10 cm, or 100 mm (which are actually the same -- 100mm = 10cm)? This is more like 3.9" which seems more reasonable.

Just wanting to clarify this a bit.

--Mark

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

See what happens when Americans try to speak the European lingo? Besides, I think most Brits understand the "imperial" measurements we use here pretty well...afterall, they invented them.. I believe it was related to some king's body parts...

As for the forestay damage on Jeff's boat, I'd bet a 12 pack that it was caused by the PO not knowing how to tighten a turnbuckle. If you don't hold the forestay from spinning while you turn the turnbuckle, it will snap the outmost strands like that.