MacGregorSailors.com

Frank wrote:I reject the RoT(*) notion that tongue wt must be 8 percent ... my pickup has only 6.5% tongue wt and it pulls my 26X, "... like it wasn't there!"

It's a little more than a rule of thumb, it's advice from those who have been towing since before you were born. I challenge you to find anywhere other than on this Board, a guideline that says something lower than 10% tongue weight is OK.

As with any safety guideline which hasn't been written into law, you're free to reject it. You can ride a motorcycle without a helmet In CA as well, can't you? I reject in advance your anecdotal evidence that you haven't wrecked yet.

Frank wrote:The factor that really determines how and where you mount the spare is truly specific to your individual towing rig's height, making it indeterminate as a general rule.

Not exactly. Regardless of tow vehicle, the trailer needs to tow level. If it's low in the front, you need to get a higher rise hitch. It is true that a vehicle with overloaded (or mariginally so) suspension will "trailer hitch" more and that might be a consideration when choosing where to locate the spare.

Warning: incoming rant.
Actually, it is currently illeagal to ride a motorcycle here without a helmet. The driving force was the thousands of riders under state care with brain injuries. These idiots cost the state millions to keep them breathing. Bikers, for some reason, tend not to carry insurance. They were warned for years that this was coming and still didn't self govern. I have zero sympathy for these helmetless braindead riders. I know this is coldhearted but just how STUPID you would have to be to ride ten feet without a helmet. We are lucky as a species to have them remove themselves from our gene pool. Therein lies the problem, now those who would ride without a helmet will end up breeding. Rant over, thanks.

Well, riding w/o a helmet has been made legal here in PA, and like you, I think it's insane. Bikes in Pennsylvania can now truly be called 'donorcycles'. The stupid part is we'll all end up paying for it in higher insurance rates and taxes. Sigh. Never underestimate the capabilities of stupid people working in groups - like the PA Legislature.

As for the tongue weight, I gotta say that I always believed that 10% was the correct balance point, though I've not actually done any experiments - it would be interesting if someone could turn up some research either way. However, I believe the rationale was that lesser tongue weights would cause dangerous swaying of the trailer at speed. Now, if you don't really get up to much more than 40-45 mph, I can't imagine that swaying would ever happen regardless of the tongue weight... IMHO it really only shows up at the +50 mph speeds. So, different folks may have different experiences and still hold quite vaild opinions.

Well, riding w/o a helmet has been made legal here in PA, and like you, I think it's insane.

On the bright side, think of all the hands-on experience our cadre of brain surgeons must be getting.

Now doesn't that prospect brighten up your day?

R Rae wrote:

kmclemore wrote:Well, riding w/o a helmet has been made legal here in PA, and like you, I think it's insane.

On the bright side, think of all the hands-on experience our cadre of brain surgeons must be getting.
Now doesn't that prospect brighten up your day?

Not when I'm bloody-well paying for it!

My 2005 M trailer would seriously drag the spare tire at the end of my long driveway and in gas station driveways. I use a 2004 Toyota Sienna AWD as a tow vehicle and I probably have less hooked-up spare-tire clearance than most of you. First I tried elimination of any in-boat weight forward of the axle while trailering, but, even with full fuel tanks and water tank, it still rubbed.

I solved this problem by simply turning the stock spare tire mounting bracket around, so that the "tails" are now pointing up. I gained 1 1/2" of ground clearance for the spare, and it hasn't dragged since. I'll post a photo tomorrow. This is the best kind of mod - IT'S FREE!

Sorry for the delayed post. Here is the stock spare tire bracket turned upside down.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/ ... unting.jpg
MSpareTireLocation.jpg

Mark

Do you think our Sienna’s will last towing this brute around? I am not convinced. I lugged MV back from Bill’s; 17hr straight (stuck 3.5hr in ORD….. I’m shocked!). Best I could do was 60mph on the flats, which lasted all the way till heading north from T.O.

My concern is the rear suspension. The engine seems to be able to “comply” with my request when I say go, it can accelerate up to 60mph nil probs. I have just been noticing that the rear end seems to get lower and lower every time I drop the tongue onto her. Notice the picture, the tongue jack is down to level it out while at rest.






Penny for your thoughts.

G

What's the Sienna's gross vehicle wt rating, and what's the tow rating? Your rear springs are clearly overloaded. This artificially lightens the load on the front wheels, impairing safe handling.

It's possible to tow a Mac 26 with Civic, Caravan or Sienna, but I'm betting they'll give up the ghost, maybe in smoke, when you least expect it. At very least, this towing duty will markedly shorten their lives. Regardless of the factory's Taurus puffery, you really need a vehicle with 5,000 # tow rating if you're actually towing on the highway --- anything more than shuttling to a ramp.

I have a 2004 Toyota Sienna and it's rated at 5,000 towing with weight distribution, and 3,500 without. In my case, I added AirLift spring inserts to accomplish this - they make a nice kit for the Sienna that sells for less than a boatbuck. This kit will not only add the weight distribution you need, but will also keep the Sienna's hitch from dragging, as you mentioned.

With this kit, I'm quite happy with the Sienna as a tow vehicle - plenty of power and it handles and stops nicely with the Mac in tow. I've towed my Mac from New Mexico to Pennsylvania and up to new Hampshire, all without incident using the Toyota. And although I cringe to say it, on the run from NM to PA the speed easily crept up on me and I accidentally ended up going over 90 mph! (The world's fastest Mac?? )

See this forum here for my install and lots more on Sienna's and hitches. BTW, Siennas come with a towing package as standard equipment, however I did order the 4-wheel disc brakes as well just for extra safety.

Not to hijack this thread, but our 2004 Sienna LE is the AWD model, ordered with the factory trailering package. This included upgrades to the wheels, suspension, transmission, and cooling system. Although I don't usually pull very far, 34 miles from Northridge to Marina Del Rey, I do have to go over the Santa Monica Mountains on the infamous 405 Freeway. This is one of the most congested freeways in the world and is full of crazies. I usually drive 60-65 mph to better flow with traffic; someday I'll be explaining this theory to a judge (Trailering speed limit in CA is 55 mph, widely ignored). No overheating even in 112 degrees uphill. I plan to purchase the air-bag type helper-springs that Kmclemore has helpfully descrribed, although I never have any more driveway dragging problems after re-mounting my spare.

I have no practical power limitations - that's what gears are for. When I drive to Ventura Harbor and ascend the Camarillo Grade (5 miles at 13% - sure I don't go 70 mph, but I have no problem doing 55-60 up this hill in 3rd and 4th and I pass lots of slower-moving traffic. And the AWD is terriffic for yanking the boat out (I have bent my license plate horizontal showing off!) My around-town mileage is 20 mpg, and towing mileage averages 15 mpg. So who needs a V-8 with inherently less MPG? What more do you need? So Beene, don't worry, it's a Toyota.

Mark

Standing corrected!

Beene's photo clearly shows it's overloaded and I never tried to search the vehicle specs ... just assumed it must be in the Caravan club. While hard to believe it could really get 15 mpg while towing a Mac, (really?!! ) it does sound viable with the factory towing package. Be aware, Beene, that if you're going to upgrade it for towing, you should check if a trans cooler is needed in addition to the rear suspension upgrade.
Everyday driving at 20 mpg is twice as good as my GMC Sierra!

Frank C wrote:...While hard to believe it could really get 15 mpg while towing a Mac, (really?!! ) it does sound viable with the factory towing package.

Yes, indeed, that's around the mileage I get too, and it's a great towing platform... plus they are *really* comfy for a van, too. I'm not usually a Toyota fan, but these Siennas are wonderful.

Oh, and it has a tranny cooler as standard, Frank... as I say, the towing package is standard equipment, unlike on the Honda odyssey.

kmclemore wrote:I have a 2004 Toyota Sienna and it's rated at 5,000 towing with weight distribution, and 3,500 without. In my case, I added AirLift spring inserts to accomplish this - they make a nice kit for the Sienna that sells for less than a boatbuck. This kit will not only add the weight distribution you need, but will also keep the Sienna's hitch from dragging, as you mentioned.

Not trying to stir up trouble, but I don't think that these will give you any appreciable weight distribution. True weight distribution hitches use a cantilever principle to actually pull the rear end of the towing vehicle up. The air bags simply push it up by pushing down on the rear suspension, which pushes down on the rear wheels. A minor amount of weight will transfer forward, due to the very slight shift in the center of gravity, but not nearly enough to call it weight distribution.

Rich---N7ZH

Edit double post

Rich---N7ZH

Frank,

You are correct that my picture makes the rear of the van quite overloaded. In that picture, the boat is empty, brand new from Bill, no motor, fuel, nothing, zip, nada.

I am hoping that when I get the boat back out of storage next spring, and mount my Merc 75 4s at 350lb ish, plus 2 12 gal tks in the cockpit, it will level out a bit. I figure it was designed to be towed with at least the 50hp ob plus 2 tks, so it should offset that tongue weight a bit.

Kevin,

Thanks for the info. I owned a Jeep before and just added another leaf to stiffen up the rear end, I will chk into that mod you mentioned.

Mark,

You’re right, it is a Toyota, and I have owned big v8 cars, a Safari AWD and a Jeep Cherokee LTD, the Sienna has been by far the very best of the bunch in every way IMHO. I bought it brand new in ’01 and still solid as a rock and quiet as can be on the hwy. Quite the work horse also as I have towed my 565 and a Starcraft sleep 8 all over the place for 5 years, nil probs. The fuel econ is just a bonus. With last summers prices, a BIG bonus.

Cheers

Geoff